Illegal pitching-no call??

[FastpitchPros]

The only thing that I can disagree with is your opening statement. My wife says that is giving me too much credit.

I have absolutely no issue with changing the rules. I have said that on illegal pitches in softball and in a major argument over balks in baseball. We cannot just enforce things because “it should be”. If you want things to be illegal, you have to change THE RULES. I emphasize THE RULES because too many orgs (including NFHS) have tried to “legislate through case play” and end up issuing contradictory statements.

The only other hiccup I would point out in your post is the video thing ... It sounds good, but we have videos in this thread and can’t agree. Maybe clarify that with comprehensive/quality videos?

Edited to add: I did forget one thing ... not saying it doesn’t happen, but I have never been told by an assignor or UIC not to call something.

Hey "The Man In Blue" (TMIB) - I am guessing your an umpire... and not part of the Vegas Show?

Your wife sounds like mine... My wife tells me she is always right... So every time she makes an actual mistake... I say "What did I do to cause you to make that mistake"

TMIB... I agree with your comment on the random game video...

That is why the RULE BOOK videos would need to be produced and filmed in a controlled environment (not game footage).. with several camera angles filming at the same time (U1, U2, U3, U4).

In addition, you would need to have a "Rule Book Committee" consensus that a set of videos are the EXACT interpretation of the rule.

In the "printing press era"... The Written Rule Book had to be approved by a committee... So the process of "creating a video interpretation of the "written text" should be simple" (just don't allow any pitching coach to be involved or have any influence)

Pitching Coach and Pitchers must be kept accountable to the rules... so having a "video rule with voice-over" will STOP the "toe bending", because there will be no "so-called interpretation" of the written text.

Currently... the LAZY pitching coaches that don't know how to correct this "toe bending" problem... they just argues that "they are right and the umpire is wrong" because admitting to the parents they don't know... and don't want to learn how to fix this problem... would be really hard on their GIANT EGOS

Just think... the parents have spent all that money to have their daughter taught an illegal pitch.... So... the pitching coach is forced to tell the club's parent, pitchers, coaches that THEY are right... so at every single game... they YELL & SCREAM & SWEAR at the umpires until they all quit calling it an "illegal pitch" (or a coach gets ejected... and these parents/coaches still think the umpire was wrong... and their pitching coach is correct - WTH)

TMIB - Good to hear that your local UIC's don't tell you "not to call illegal pitches"...

Unfortunately... In various confidential conversation... I have been told that the scouting "college coaches" should know if a pitcher is "illegal"... so... there is no illegal pitch calls... and these teams win the tournament with an illegal pitcher

Plus the hosting club team... does not want to "piss-off" any teams... and get negative feedback... that spreads to other club teams about their tournament... they want them all to keep coming back... and spending money

 

[4KidsDad]

Actually that is a Bandits picture of Barnhill.. So there is nothing illegal about that pitch.

I thought it looked eerily familiar...

With all the hundreds of comments and controversies on this board over this issue, I don't believe a pitcher has actually offered any input.

I are one (well, 30 years ago in boys JO). And this is exactly how I pitched and why I'm firmly in the camp of illegal.

Knees bending, toes bending, fulcrums, hips--whatever--.they're all moot points. I challenge anyone to pitch this way and once you do, you will know for sure that you will be "pushing off from somewhere other than the plate".

 

[BktMom3]

I’m flat out convinced umpires in our area don’t even read the book. We saw one girl the other night, start her backswing, go forward with her arm, reload into another backswing, and then pitch. Illegal or not? I thought it was illegal. Maybe not. No video.

 

[The Man In Blue]

I’m flat out convinced umpires in our area don’t even read the book. We saw one girl the other night, start her backswing, go forward with her arm, reload into another backswing, and then pitch. Illegal or not? I thought it was illegal. Maybe not. No video.

I will sadly affirm that there are many umpires who don’t read — and read frequently — rule books. Where that gets even more dangerous is when you work multiple codes. Honestly, that was one of my primary reasons for joining this group (and groups like it). It is a mental exercise that keeps me “poking the pages”. Heck, from time to time I find I am wrong on something I thought. (Don’t tell my wife.)

What code was that game being played under? (So I can go find the right book! )

 

[The Man In Blue]

Hey "The Man In Blue" (TMIB) - I am guessing your an umpire... and not part of the Vegas Show?
...
Unfortunately... In various confidential conversation... I have been told that the scouting "college coaches" should know if a pitcher is "illegal"... so... there is no illegal pitch calls... and these teams win the tournament with an illegal pitcher

Plus the hosting club team... does not want to "piss-off" any teams... and get negative feedback... that spreads to other club teams about their tournament... they want them all to keep coming back... and spending money

Umpire yes. Though I’ve had games that felt like they were turning into Vegas shows ...

The way you worded that did make me think of something that I should amend ... I did work a college showcase where we were told not to call illegal pitches. Since we weren’t playing to a tournament champion, I think the logic was fairly sound though: “If she pitches illegal, the coaches should have the chance to see that.”

Yes, sadly those directions are often given with ulterior motives. To keep getting games from that school, to keep teams coming back, to keep players paying, etc.

 

[Comp]

I’m flat out convinced umpires in our area don’t even read the book. We saw one girl the other night, start her backswing, go forward with her arm, reload into another backswing, and then pitch. Illegal or not? I thought it was illegal. Maybe not. No video.

Depends on what she did before she dropped her arm to the back. Had she brought her hands together and separated them? If not, then she can pretty much do anything she wants prior to the start of the pitch.

If she had brought the hands together, separated them and dropped her arm back, then once she starts forward motion she cannot reverse direction.

 

[BktMom3]

Depends on what she did before she dropped her arm to the back. Had she brought her hands together and separated them? If not, then she can pretty much do anything she wants prior to the start of the pitch.

If she had brought the hands together, separated them and dropped her arm back, then once she starts forward motion she cannot reverse direction.

Separated.

 

[Fury_Mike]

I wanted to post this picture about 6 pages ago but am just now getting to it.

This is from a Flo Softball email blast a few weeks ago.
View attachment 15045

The girl above is just fine. IMO, the girl below is illegal.

Then,...just got this email today also from Flo.

View attachment 15046

I can just feel like she's about to leap and push off from somewhere other than the pitcher's plate.

Not quite sure what my point is....just thought it was funny timing with this thread that Flo is broadcasting what-arguably-are illegal pitchers.

Why are you saying the girl on the bottom is illegal. Are you assuming that she will push again from her “drag” foot? I do agree that most pitchers that use this technique do push a second time or get airborne

 

[Mike Mac]

There is no competitive advantage gained by crow hopping. By the time the pitcher "replants" the ball is out of her hand, So no physical second push off happens than would impact pitching performance.

 

[FastpitchPros]

There is no competitive advantage gained by crow hopping. By the time the pitcher "replants" the ball is out of her hand, So no physical second push-off happens than would impact pitching performance.

Mike Mac, I agree that it is almost impossible to replant and add a second push/drive (I have seen this)... PLUS+ a second push would negatively impact their speed/accuracy (and this was the result). However, wouldn't you agree (just like Men's fastpitch), that a replant creates a "pivot point" that allows an additional energy transfer to the resisting frontside landing? The legal pitcher has a continuous drag... and does not gain additional energy transfer... since they do not have a pivot point during their "launch to landing". In my experience... and using super slow-mo videos (240fps/480fps) evaluations of these "illegal pitchers"... their replanted "pivot point" is especially effective at increasing spin-rate, which is caused by decreasing the length of the energy transfer... and thus slamming the increased momentum into the front side landing, creating more energy. In addition, it is very deceptive to most batters, due to the pivot... which looks very different than a continuous drag pitcher... like there is a hitch during their release making it harder to time/see/pick-up (hence the success of Barnhill's replanting).