How much break for a decent drop curve?

[marriard]

No, not really. The myth that propagates through the lower levels of softball that it is "OK to have a marginal breaking pitch". Parents like to believe that myth because it allows them to believe their DD is exceptional when in fact she is mediocre.

I didn't say that it was OK to believe a marginal pitch is going to get it done. I said it doesn't necessarily have to always be an overpowering drop ball/rise ball that is the pitch we are talking about. It is not OK to rely on bad pitches or pitches that are not well located or don't move and so on - but it also doesn't always have to be overpowering or a massively breaking pitch to be effective either. There is a lot of Strike Out counting in softball pitching at the moment rather than 'Out' counting. The pop up or the ground ball out counts just the same. There are many ways to get it done because if there is only one possible way eventually that way wont work.

A "good" pitcher (someone who is effective at the collegiate level) has control of the location and has at least one really good vertically breaking pitch.

I can mostly agree here. You need to have mastered more than one type of pitch to be successful. A pitch that moves on different planes especially with variety and location skills is one of the tools you will need to have a chance of being successful. You throw a bad curve there is a chance it is going to get hit - just the same as if you throw a bad drop ball or any other pitch.

Then she is not a good hitter. Good hitters don't chase balls out of the strike zone unless it is a nasty breaking pitch.

Here I will disagree in general because it goes against what I see every weekend, at college games and also in baseball. Batters swing at a lot of good and bad pitches out of the zone. You look at location of pitches from any pitchers with control and they are going spend a lot of time working either at the edge of the strike zone, just out of it or throwing pitchers that start in/end out or start out/end in. It doesn't have to all that 'nasty' of a break or movement for the batter to swing at it especially if you can keep a better unbalanced.

I was watching a replay of Arizona State v Florida from last years CWS and Florida's batters couldn't help themselves on high pitches which were rarely in the strike zone (of course a lot of them were rise balls as that was the main pitch their pitcher used). I think we can all agree Florida are an excellent hitting team though I am still stunned they kept swinging at it batter after batter (at some point their coaching staff needed to say that she is only throwing rise balls - if it is at your numbers let it go). They weren't all nasty breaking pitches they were swinging and missing at either. Lots of other examples out there. I remember a couple of the ESPN broadcasts where they had their k-zone technology in place and if it was anywhere near accurate I remember some games where it seemed that the pitcher NEVER threw a pitch that was a strike but lots of D1 batters were swinging away.

In the specific case I will say the girl is a very good hitter but has an identified flaw when she is at bat that needs correcting. I think we all know lots of batters like this.

 

[sluggers]

but it also doesn't always have to be overpowering or a massively breaking pitch to be effective either.

A pitcher does not need to throw her big breaking pitch every pitch. But, a pitcher has to have one in her arsenal. If a pitcher does not have a big time breaking pitch in college, they will not pitch. It really is that simple.

I was watching a replay of Arizona State v Florida from last years CWS and Florida's batters couldn't help themselves on high pitches which were rarely in the strike zone (of course a lot of them were rise balls as that was the main pitch their pitcher used).

So, your point is that a pitcher doesn't need a big time breaking pitch, and your evidence of that is batters swinging at riseballs?

 

[marriard]

A pitcher does not need to throw her big breaking pitch every pitch. But, a pitcher has to have one in her arsenal. If a pitcher does not have a big time breaking pitch in college, they will not pitch. It really is that simple.

Sure - but again it doesn't have to be rise/drop being the big movement pitch or the players best pitch. You need very good 'stuff' to be a good pitcher and then you need to know how to use this stuff to be a successful pitcher. What the 'stuff' is can vary and should vary depending on the pitcher.

So, your point is that a pitcher doesn't need a big time breaking pitch, and your evidence of that is batters swinging at riseballs?

No, it was just an example of very good batters swinging at pitchers way out of the strike zone I had seen recently. This was in response to your "Good batters don't chase balls out of the strikezone" comment which is a completely different subject.

 

[starsnuffer]

Here's Tincher with her no-hitter against Team USA. She pitched about 3 pitches in the strike zone the entire game. Pretty sure she faced some good hitters here.



-W

 

[sluggers]

What the 'stuff' is can vary and should vary depending on the pitcher.

Not really. The good pitchers *always* have great location and at least one big time vertical movement pitch. All of the pitchers at the CWS could get 12 to 15 inches of movement on either a drop or rise. If you look at the good pitchers at any collegiate level (D1, D2 or D3), they are all going to have either a very good drop or rise.

This was in response to your "Good batters don't chase balls out of the strikezone"

Starsnuff: Marriad is taking my comment out of context. In a previous post, he was waxing eloquent about how good a hitter was, except the hitter had a slight problem in that she struck out 5 times *in a row* by chasing high fastballs. I should have more accurately said, "Good batters don't chase fastballs out of the strikezone."

 

[Coach JV]

Getting back to the OP-a good breaking pitch with 'enough movement' is the one that
is generally a strike, whether it be a called strike or swinging strike.

Sluggers is spot on with his view of batters chasing pitches out of the zone.
There are so many variables to this equation that this thread will have to be closed
these variables range from the pitch count to inning to game score.......

 

[tojo]

Sluggers, how can all the pitchers at the CWS have 12" to 15" of vertical movement on either the drop or rise when it has been debated endlessly the rise ball doesn't rise.

 

[sluggers]

tojo: the break on the ball is the difference between the actual end location of the ball and the projected end location of the ball if the ball was thrown at the same angle and speed but with zero spin.

A ball thrown at a zero degree angle with the ground will drop about 32 inches from the pitchers release point to the plate. So, a good/great rise would drop only about 16 inches or so. A good drop will drop 45 to 47 inches.

 

[tojo]

Sluggers, I read your explanation and decided to do some calculations. I am 5'11" tall and at release the ball would leave my hand at about 33" from the ground and if I shift my weight to my front foot at release it would be about 37". What you describe as a good drop would never make it close to the plate before it hit the ground. Are you factoring in gravity and a 10 to 14 inch arc when you say a good drop will drop 45 to 47 inches?
Are you also saying that a rise breaks down in it's vertical movement when you referred to it in your earlier post, then the rise is a misnomer and should be called a lesser drop.

 

[Sparky Guy]

A "good" pitcher (someone who is effective at the collegiate level) has control of the location and has at least one really good vertically breaking pitch.

Ray,

Some of the dynamics of pitching at the collegiate level have changed since the NCAA has shrunk the strike zone on the top and the bottom. The great drop that used to tickle the bottom of the strike is now being called for a ball. The same thing with the rise.

During my DD's senior year in college after they changed the rule she ended up having to use her rise as more of a setup pitch for her drop curve and screwball. She had a marginal drop and only used it to keep the hitters off balance with different look at times.

On another note. I really can't go with your assertion that a drop curve is a poorly thrown drop ball. Her drop curve was definitely NOT a poorly thrown drop ball. It was thrown with the palm and finger tips up. The hand never came over the top of the ball.