How do you throw a RISEBALL?

[Rick Pauly]

One more spin drill for riseball. You would be amazed at how many young pitchers have difficulty putting backspin on a ball or a spinner or a cannonball. This is why I am a proponent of learning riseball spin at an early age.......but don't expect it to be an effective pitch until a reasonable speed can be achieved when throwing a riseball. Reasonable speed swags= 54mph/14-16U, 58mph/18U-moderate college, 62mph/higher level college

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

OILF - THANKS for the critical thinking on this.

The other popular thread on riseballs has whacked-out so many heads on what riseballs are and are not that it will take 6 months to return to normal around here.....if ever...REMEMBER that my biggest argument in the other riseball thread, that I refuse to go back to, is that it was ignoring two valid facts of science & statistics (1. Reynolds effect on pitched balls; 2. statistical minimum thresholds for valid data,..ie need at least 30 different pitchers)

The best sanity I have been seeing on riseballs is FROM riseball.

I suspect the population here in DFP has evolved into dads of younger pitchers where a bullet-spin "rise" can be effective in their younger age environments. It can in younger and less skilled environments just because sooooo many pitchers are carbon-copies of each other throwing down-pitches. Just wait til they get to the bigger national events at 16U and they see that once "effective" bullet-spinner get demolished into the yard on regular occasion. The better HC's of the better travel teams out there are chomping on the bit at this community promoting a bullet-spin as a "rise".....

This next statement you can take for whatever you think it's worth. There are only TWO pitchers in my whole state, that I have seen, that throw real riseballs. These are riseballs that I believe will be the only ones that actually WORK in the bigger national events and I bet the only two pitchers that will be throwing that pitch once they get to their D1 destinations.

These two pitchers have a riseball that displays the dynamics that sir-riseball has been talking about and what I have been too – which is a late break on the horizontal plane. No lie, most of the high-end "legends" of the sport in our area have been clamoring to get with my DD and figure out why what happens with her rise. Why would they do this? Because they know it’s special and not just a bullet-spinner….

My GUESS on the effectiveness of DD’s rise is the following. With the late break away from the right handed batter it gives the impression of a ball moving away from the sight of the batter and this fools the batter into reacting in a standard fashion to what a ball is normally doing when it moves away from their eye. Their reaction-training tells them if the ball is moving away from their eye it must be moving down in the zone. This is where I believe DD gets her trusted response from the batter and a swing under the ball.

Anyone who wants to discount “late break” – I will not contend with your thoughts until you address my first full paragraph above (like I was begging for in the other thread before it got accusational…..)

Bold above ..... it's actually the other way around .... that is, a bullet-spin pitch can be made to take on more of the profile of an ideal true-backspin pitch at higher pitch speeds.

As for the late break notion ..... even with a true back-spin the ball will not suddenly rise up at a greater trajectory as it approaches the batter.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Here is an excerpt from a great paper regarding "late break". If you want to go thru the entire paper here is a link:
Transitions between Central and Peripheral Vision Create Spatial/Temporal Distortions: A Hypothesis Concerning the Perceived Break of the Curveball

"Humans constantly shift objects from peripheral vision to central vision, and vice versa. We therefore propose that the perceived discontinuity in our experimental examples can be applied to real world situations. For instance, in the game of baseball, as a spinning ball travels from the pitcher's mound to home plate, the image of the ball is transferred from the batter's fovea to the batter's periphery (and vice versa). Batters often report that a curveball undergoes a discrete change in direction (the curveball's “break”) even though physical measurements indicate that the curveball curves gradually; batters also report that a fastball appears to rise when it is actually falling (the “rising fastball”). We therefore introduce a new hypothesis that these perceptual puzzles are due in part to the differing capabilities of the central and peripheral visual systems."

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Here is an excerpt from a great paper regarding "late break". If you want to go thru the entire paper here is a link:
Transitions between Central and Peripheral Vision Create Spatial/Temporal Distortions: A Hypothesis Concerning the Perceived Break of the Curveball

"Humans constantly shift objects from peripheral vision to central vision, and vice versa. We therefore propose that the perceived discontinuity in our experimental examples can be applied to real world situations. For instance, in the game of baseball, as a spinning ball travels from the pitcher's mound to home plate, the image of the ball is transferred from the batter's fovea to the batter's periphery (and vice versa). Batters often report that a curveball undergoes a discrete change in direction (the curveball's “break”) even though physical measurements indicate that the curveball curves gradually; batters also report that a fastball appears to rise when it is actually falling (the “rising fastball”). We therefore introduce a new hypothesis that these perceptual puzzles are due in part to the differing capabilities of the central and peripheral visual systems."

Batters that use a "relaxed open focus" simply don't see the ball 'breaking' in the context that many describe as breaking.

When batters report that they are seeing the pitch suddenly break they are basically saying that they are not looking at the ball correctly.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Bold above ..... it's actually the other way around .... that is, a bullet-spin pitch can be made to take on more of the profile of an ideal true-backspin pitch at higher pitch speeds .

I respectfully but completely disagree. For a ball thrown at a softball pitchers speed.

As for the late break notion ..... even with a true back-spin the ball will not suddenly rise up at a greater trajectory as it approaches the batter.[/QUOTE]

Given Reynolds affect the ball WILL, but not suddenly (like a 90 degree turn or anything crazy like that), but within the last roughly third of the flight path, adopt a new trajectory pattern.

 

[colin]

the interactive curveball illusion is pretty neat and the track definitely looks different depending on where your focus is

 

[riseball]

Batters that use a "relaxed open focus" simply don't see the ball 'breaking' in the context that many describe as breaking.

When batters report that they are seeing the pitch suddenly break they are basically saying that they are not looking at the ball correctly.

I cant say that your theory is incorrect. However, in order for it to be true the list of people that have it all wrong is truly staggering.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I respectfully but completely disagree. For a ball thrown at a softball pitchers speed.

Given Reynolds affect the ball WILL, but not suddenly (like a 90 degree turn or anything crazy like that), but within the last roughly third of the flight path, adopt a new trajectory pattern.

Post some video that shows this 'new trajectory pattern'.

A true rise-ball profile actually "flattens out" within the last third of the flight path.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

When batters report that they are seeing the pitch suddenly break they are basically saying that they are not looking at the ball correctly.

Again - my from my unchallenged scientific perspective on this, by this community, this is incorrect.

Here is a more complete scientific report snigglet that was actually developed at MIT around the sport of Cricket that actually addresses, AND DOES NOT IGNORE Reynolds:

"We have seen that during the course of a typical shot, the ball decelerates through
the drag crisis, its boundary layers transitioning from turbulent to laminar. When the
ball is spinning, one expects the drag crisis to be crossed first on the retreating side,
where the velocity difference between ball and free stream is minimum. There would
thus arise a situation in which the boundary layer is turbulent on the advancing side,
and laminar on the retreating side. The resulting delay of boundary layer separation
on the advancing side would lead to an asymmetric wake, with air in the wake being
deflected in the direction of the retreating side, giving rise to the reverseMagnus effect,
and a lift force opposite that expected (CL < 0; Figure 6d). As the ball decelerates
further, both boundary layers will transition to laminar, and the lift anticipated on
the basis of the traditional Magnus effect (CL > 0) will be restored. To summarize,
as a typical shot decelerates through the drag crisis, its Magnus force will change
sign twice, as the retreating and advancing boundary layers transition in turn from
turbulent to laminar."

This report proved the interaction between Reynolds and Magnus (again the part ignored in the other thread) AND also proved the "assymetric" and latent forces that can act on a ball midflight causing it to have a "late-break".

ANYONE here (including me) that has claims their complete understanding of the co-dependent effects of Magnus and Reynolds on a moving ball is selling wetlands in the Sahara.....

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I cant say that your theory is incorrect. However, in order for it to be true the list of people that have it all wrong is truly staggering.

Yes, it is a bit staggering .... .... .... .... what is staggering is that the teaching of improper vision is quite widespread.