How do you throw a RISEBALL?

[lhowser]

My interpretation of Ihowser's question is that he wishes to avoid the common pitfall that happens when a pitcher attempts to impart a riseball spin by using their wrist to obtain that spin. He understands that using the wrist out of sequence, and forgetting that the wrist is primarily a hinge, can result in a loss of speed. He is further asking for what is considered the proper action to achieve backspin ... which for many will result in a high degree of bullet-spin.

That is well stated. That is a big part of the discussion I hope this thread brings. The other issue is posture.

 

[Greenmonsters]

The "reality" is that my DD has not racked up 183K's this season throwing a pitch that does not move. Yes, there are a bunch of pitchers throwing the Wunderpitch, but the vast majority of are getting hammered. The "reality" is that the best riseball pitchers in the game do not throw bulletspin.

The reality is that her Ks are due to the the lack of movement of her riseball, which is desirable because it drops less and has less physical movement than the batter expects!

 

[JJsqueeze]

That is well stated. That is a big part of the discussion I hope this thread brings. The other issue is posture.

Lhowser, I don't have any advice on how to throw it, but as far as learning to throw it now vs. later, it seems to me that there is no harm in starting the learning process now regardless of speed. Even if it isn't effective now, it will be later. By all accounts it takes a long time to master so getting her started now puts her in a better position later so the spin is there when the speed is right. I have my 11 year old playing around with it now for some of the same reasons. At the very least, a high pitch with a different profile can be effective as a high chase pitch. Plenty of girls out there are vulnerable to higher pitches. I am also using it to set up her changeup. That high fastball sure looks similar to her CU trajectory wise until it is too late. Pitching is so multi dimensional, the more dimensions you have the better.

 

[Greenmonsters]

The faster the pitch speed, the more the pitcher can get away with bullet-spin.

If you are throwing pitches with pure bullet-spin then spin-rate isn't a key factor.

"Under general manager Neal Huntington, the Pirates made targeting and acquiring velocity a key part of their strategy, adding pitchers such as A.J. Burnett and Francisco Liriano, and placing a premium on velocity in the draft.

“(Velocity) gives you a larger margin for error,” Huntington said. “Ninety-four (mph) that runs and gets too much of the plate has much more margin for error than 88 (mph) that runs and gets too much of the plate.”

Excepted from The Pirates have made velocity an organizational focus | HardballTalk

 

[riseball]

The reality is that her Ks are due to the the lack of movement of her riseball, which is desirable because it drops less and has less physical movement than the batter expects!

When and where did you see her throw? You did not notice the movement through the vertical plane? She throws her rise with about 30 degrees of positive roll and minimal yaw in order to impact 2 planes. I want to see someone do that with a Wunderpitch.

 

[JAD]

We've heard turning a door knob and screwing in a light but that does not seem to match the recent slo-mo posted here on DFP. I don't want to lead her down the wrong path with techniques that are not true even though a lot of people my say them (In other words i do not want the equivalent to Hello Elbow on the RISE).

We have always used the term "turn the door knob" when describing a screwball. To throw a screwball you "turn the door knob" and finish with the wrist @ waist high. A scrise ball is the same motion with a higher finish of the hand. A scrop is finishing with your hand around your knee.

 

[Greenmonsters]

When and where did you see her throw? You did not notice the movement through the vertical plane? She throws her rise with about 30 degrees of positive roll and minimal yaw in order to impact 2 planes. I want to see someone do that with a Wunderpitch.

I've never seen her throw and I was not belittling her technique or ability. Relax, by getting defensive you missed the point - an ideal rise ball w/ perfect 12-6 spin fights gravity and drops less than any other pitch - thus its the lack of deviation or movement from the initial trajectory that makes a riseball effective because it does not track (i.e., drop as significantly) the way most batters expect. Technically, you could call the rise an anti-movement pitch! Not sure exactly what you mean by roll and yaw, but I take it to mean that her rise has some lateral break as well. If that's the case, then there isn't perfect 12-6 backspin? FWIW, most pitches have hybrid spin IMO. Not that it doesn't mean that they can't be effective, particularly when thrown with above average velocity as noted in the link I provided about the Pirates pitching strategy.

 

[riseball]

I've never seen her throw and I was not belittling her technique or ability. Relax, by getting defensive you missed the point - an ideal rise ball w/ perfect 12-6 spin fights gravity and drops less than any other pitch - thus its the lack of deviation or movement from the initial trajectory that makes a riseball effective because it does not track (i.e., drop as significantly) the way most batters expect. Technically, you could call the rise an anti-movement pitch! Not sure exactly what you mean by roll and yaw, but I take it to mean that her rise has some lateral break as well. If that's the case, then there isn't perfect 12-6 backspin? FWIW, most pitches have hybrid spin IMO. Not that it doesn't mean that they can't be effective, particularly when thrown with above average velocity as noted in the link I provided about the Pirates pitching strategy.

When you get right down to it there is no such thing as a perfect 12-6 riseball. If you measure with enough precision there will always be some deviation. Some pitchers have more than others. The best riseballs I have seen are what would be described as hybrids which move or as you described track (really like that term) along both the vertical and horizontal planes. As you suggested the riseball I described breaks up and in to right handed batter and better yet breaks up and away from a slapper which when thrown low outside on the river has proven to be a very effective. As for the description of a classic 12-6 riseball as an anti-movement pitch, I think anti-gravity pitch sounds much cooler.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Has anyone who has posted here on this thread ever thrown a riseball? It really is sad that we have lots of opinions and so-called physics lessons but not many actual throwers anymore. I also don't know where this bullet spin thing came from. It is not even a thought of something you want in a pitcher, today especially. And accepting less than proper spin. Nope, settling not allowed. Why throw 200- 300 pitches a day if not to get right?

OILF - THANKS for the critical thinking on this.

The other popular thread on riseballs has whacked-out so many heads on what riseballs are and are not that it will take 6 months to return to normal around here.....if ever...REMEMBER that my biggest argument in the other riseball thread, that I refuse to go back to, is that it was ignoring two valid facts of science & statistics (1. Reynolds effect on pitched balls; 2. statistical minimum thresholds for valid data,..ie need at least 30 different pitchers)

The best sanity I have been seeing on riseballs is FROM riseball.

I suspect the population here in DFP has evolved into dads of younger pitchers where a bullet-spin "rise" can be effective in their younger age environments. It can in younger and less skilled environments just because sooooo many pitchers are carbon-copies of each other throwing down-pitches. Just wait til they get to the bigger national events at 16U and they see that once "effective" bullet-spinner get demolished into the yard on regular occasion. The better HC's of the better travel teams out there are chomping on the bit at this community promoting a bullet-spin as a "rise".....

This next statement you can take for whatever you think it's worth. There are only TWO pitchers in my whole state, that I have seen, that throw real riseballs. These are riseballs that I believe will be the only ones that actually WORK in the bigger national events and I bet the only two pitchers that will be throwing that pitch once they get to their D1 destinations.

These two pitchers have a riseball that displays the dynamics that sir-riseball has been talking about and what I have been too – which is a late break on the horizontal plane. No lie, most of the high-end "legends" of the sport in our area have been clamoring to get with my DD and figure out why what happens with her rise. Why would they do this? Because they know it’s special and not just a bullet-spinner….

My GUESS on the effectiveness of DD’s rise is the following. With the late break away from the right handed batter it gives the impression of a ball moving away from the sight of the batter and this fools the batter into reacting in a standard fashion to what a ball is normally doing when it moves away from their eye. Their reaction-training tells them if the ball is moving away from their eye it must be moving down in the zone. This is where I believe DD gets her trusted response from the batter and a swing under the ball.

Anyone who wants to discount “late break” – I will not contend with your thoughts until you address my first full paragraph above (like I was begging for in the other thread before it got accusational…..)

 

[Rick Pauly]

She performs lots of spin drills to improve spin rate and spin axis. Most are what I would call exaggeration drills. Yes, in the spin drills she does use the thumb and fingers to increase spin rate.....does it show up in a full motion pitch.....not really. But if she didn't do these drills I think the centrifugal force created by the ball/arm circle would totally straighten out her fingers early in the release action and thus never get even close to being cupped under the ball....which is critical for imparting backspin. If you focus only on the index finger you would never believe this, but check out the other three fingers as they begin to release from the ball.....definitely cupped under the ball.
Focusing on use of the thumb for spin is IMO more for spin axis than spin rate.....in a perfect world the thumb would be pointed toward second base at release....but this is pretty much biomechanically impossible.
Below is one drill that really give feed back on spin rate and spin axis.

Rick, does Sarah intentionally try to spin the ball backwards with her thumb and fingers? It doesn't look like the "turn the knob" action typically described.