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High Level Throwing mechanics

Jun 17, 2009
15,118
0
Portland, OR
Thank you for the video, She looks very good. As i see your DD, i think we are definitely putting too much thought into the arm drop water bottle feel and not enough into hips/core/rotation. the article you referenced above shows that. see my DD throwing line vs the girl in the Wasserman article throwing 74mph.

View attachment 13545
View attachment 13546
The difference in these photos is significant.



Perhaps this will help.

 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
253
28
SE Wisconsin
The difference in these photos is significant.



Perhaps this will help.

Thanks FFS, once I saw the comparison it was obvious. I had focused more on straight behind or facing. Obviously playing catch you only see from front. Thanks for the video link. It makes sense. Hope She can break her bad habits that I have given her.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,118
0
Portland, OR
Thanks FFS, once I saw the comparison it was obvious. I had focused more on straight behind or facing. Obviously playing catch you only see from front. Thanks for the video link. It makes sense. Hope She can break her bad habits that I have given her.
What may not be appreciated by some is that the folding of the rear arm into a 'Vee orientation' has the ball close to the shoulders (i.e., hand behind neck/head). Think in terms of "hitting" and notion of "being short". Very similar. Watch good throwers closely and you will notice that the shoulders are rotated as the rear arm folds the hand/ball into a "short" orientation. To draw an analogy, it is somewhat similar to a figure skater drawing their arms in close so as to speed up their body's rotation.

From this "short orientation" the elbow simply becomes extended. Your daughter is still holding on to the linear push training associated with the old fashioned L-orientation training ... which was anti-short. Observe Austin's notion of elbow extension.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
253
28
SE Wisconsin
What may not be appreciated by some is that the folding of the rear arm into a 'Vee orientation' has the ball close to the shoulders (i.e., hand behind neck/head). Think in terms of "hitting" and notion of "being short". Very similar. Watch good throwers closely and you will notice that the shoulders are rotated as the rear arm folds the hand/ball into a "short" orientation. To draw an analogy, it is somewhat similar to a figure skater drawing their arms in close so as to speed up their body's rotation.

From this "short orientation" the elbow simply becomes extended. Your daughter is still holding on to the linear push training associated with the old fashioned L-orientation training ... which was anti-short. Observe Austin's notion of elbow extension.
In Austin’s motion as I try to replicate it seems to feel that the arm launches from the short orientation and whips out to a snap feel. Like if I were to have her focus on just getting to that snapped point and the follow thru would be natural probation. Seems like if I focus on getting follow thru across the body that she would miss the snap point. I guess just trying to figure out a good cue. Thanks again.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,118
0
Portland, OR
In Austin’s motion as I try to replicate it seems to feel that the arm launches from the short orientation and whips out to a snap feel. Like if I were to have her focus on just getting to that snapped point and the follow thru would be natural probation. Seems like if I focus on getting follow thru across the body that she would miss the snap point. I guess just trying to figure out a good cue. Thanks again.
Yes ... becoming 'short' results in the shoulders being rotated faster. That's why you see the thoracic extension and shoulder action taking place into a 'shortened orientation'. In a sense the moment of inertia is being reduced, and since angular momentum is conserved the rotational velocity of the shoulders will be increased. The feel of launching from here is a 'good feel' IMO.

Question for you ... when you write of 'whip out' and 'snap', what is being 'snapped'? Is it the elbow, forearm, hand/wrist?

I ask that question for a reason. IMO your daughter appears to be after a feel of snap in the 'hand/wrist', and a 'feel' of snap elsewhere would likely yield a different result.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
253
28
SE Wisconsin
Yes ... becoming 'short' results in the shoulders being rotated faster. That's why you see the thoracic extension and shoulder action taking place into a 'shortened orientation'. In a sense the moment of inertia is being reduced, and since angular momentum is conserved the rotational velocity of the shoulders will be increased. The feel of launching from here is a 'good feel' IMO.

Question for you ... when you write of 'whip out' and 'snap', what is being 'snapped'? Is it the elbow, forearm, hand/wrist?

I ask that question for a reason. IMO your daughter appears to be after a feel of snap in the 'hand/wrist', and a 'feel' of snap elsewhere would likely yield a different result.
The ‘whip out’ or ‘snap’ I question is what I feel when I try to do that movement and release at the same point Austin does. It sort of reminds me of that Forearm Fire guy that has been shown in the pitching forum when he just seems to try and hyperextend his elbow with his pitching motion.

It seems like that whip is getting that forearm and hand up and extended creating that full extension ‘forearm fire’ type whip to the point of release. Not sure if I am describing it right. But I was just always used to feeling a throwing motion that was a consistent speed feel thru the throw. I know I was wrong but to me the feeling with Austin’s mechanics looks like the whip gets to max speed during that ‘short to snap’ position then pronates out at a much slower speed. Just trying to figure out what ‘feel’ to focus on.

In understanding the fast pitch pitching mechanics I understand and feel that the wrist isn’t the power behind the pitch but instead the upper arm contact and slowing creating the kinetic chain thru the forearm and the ball shoots out of the hand (generic terms for ease of use) in what someone had quoted as a ballistic action.

Just curious if the arm kinetic chain on the overhand throw should be the same type of feel. With that same ballistic action happening at full extension. So I would try to have my DD try to feel that action at the top of the motion and not try to ‘pull’ it thru.

Hopefully this make some type of sense. Hard to convey in writing.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,118
0
Portland, OR
The ‘whip out’ or ‘snap’ I question is what I feel when I try to do that movement and release at the same point Austin does. It sort of reminds me of that Forearm Fire guy that has been shown in the pitching forum when he just seems to try and hyperextend his elbow with his pitching motion.

It seems like that whip is getting that forearm and hand up and extended creating that full extension ‘forearm fire’ type whip to the point of release. Not sure if I am describing it right. But I was just always used to feeling a throwing motion that was a consistent speed feel thru the throw. I know I was wrong but to me the feeling with Austin’s mechanics looks like the whip gets to max speed during that ‘short to snap’ position then pronates out at a much slower speed. Just trying to figure out what ‘feel’ to focus on.

In understanding the fast pitch pitching mechanics I understand and feel that the wrist isn’t the power behind the pitch but instead the upper arm contact and slowing creating the kinetic chain thru the forearm and the ball shoots out of the hand (generic terms for ease of use) in what someone had quoted as a ballistic action.

Just curious if the arm kinetic chain on the overhand throw should be the same type of feel. With that same ballistic action happening at full extension. So I would try to have my DD try to feel that action at the top of the motion and not try to ‘pull’ it thru.

Hopefully this make some type of sense. Hard to convey in writing.
In terms of windmill pitching, Bill Hillhouse has spoken frequently on the dangers of focusing on a wrist/hand snap. Bill frequently speaks of the arm whipping from the elbow, to fingers.

Another analogy to windmill pitching from Bill ... "The magic happens when you stop TRYING to make it drop and whip it like you're throwing as hard as possible with the right release point."

Another quote from Bill ... "too much emphasis is put on the wrist which eliminates the Elbow snap. If the elbow is trained to SNAP (as it does for an overhand pitcher) then the wrist will also snap."

Again from Bill ... "But a lot of girls are not taught to use their elbow to whip, which helps the wrist to snap naturally, and the fingers to generate the spin."

Bill ... "To get more spin, make sure the elbow, wrist AND fingers all working in sequence."

Bill ... "It's just about getting her body to work correctly, the way it's designed to achieve the most from it. That includes the whip needed from the elbow, wrist and fingers."

Bill ... "The main thing that is needed for the movement, which I did elaborate in the DVD is the elbow whip."

Bill ... "It's not about going across to the other side with the arm, it's about making sure the elbow snaps or whips just as it does when you throw a ball overhand."

Bill ... "The way our bodies are designed and move kinetically, if she's snapping the elbow... the wrist and fingers are going to snap forward in sequence."

Bill ... "snap through the pitch (elbow, wrist and fingers in that order)."

Bill ... "the more she loosens her elbow and whips across her body, the more RPM's you'll see"

Bill ... "If you work on the elbow whip or snap, then by the way your body is designed, the wrist is going to whip or snap too. So, work the elbow."

Bill ... "I'm a big believer that the elbow whip is the key to additional spin and movement, and to achieve top speed."

Bill ... "concentrate on whipping your elbow as hard as you can.... just as a baseball player whips his elbow when throwing a FB overhand."

Bill ... "Most of all, a good elbow whip will provide the kinetic chain to give max rotation. Elbow, wrist and fingers... in that order. The more one whips the elbow, the wrist and fingers HAVE to follow by the way the body functions. So don't concentrate on the wrist, don't concentrate on the fingers. DO concentrate on the elbow."

Bill ... "I tell people to concentrate on the whip or snap (choose your word) of your elbow (same as a baseball pitcher would describe) and the results will happen almost instantly"

Bill ... "All I can tell you is, the way I teach things and the way I do it myself is more about trying to whip my elbow."

Bill ... "One of the basic core beliefs I instruct is to have as much of a whip/snap of my elbow at the release of the ball. I believe the elbow to be one of the biggest keys to the pitch: regardless of the pitch being thrown."

Bottom line ... get the elbow to snap/whip.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
253
28
SE Wisconsin
Bill ... "concentrate on whipping your elbow as hard as you can.... just as a baseball player whips his elbow when throwing a FB overhand."

Got it. just need to get the sequence down and get that whip extension. Thanks for the response.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,118
0
Portland, OR
Bill ... "concentrate on whipping your elbow as hard as you can.... just as a baseball player whips his elbow when throwing a FB overhand."

Got it. just need to get the sequence down and get that whip extension. Thanks for the response.
While getting the 'elbow' to whip out of the 'short orientation' ... take note that your daughter's head is relatively frozen on her target ... that binds up her body somewhat and will make the extension that Austin is attempting to describe somewhat cumbersome. Notice the head re-direction that occurs during the thoracic extension and on-wards in the clip below. Experiment with allowing that to happen and I think you'll find the extension work much easier.




Slowed down ....

 

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