Front Shoulder Flying Open

[Hitter]

I have a very aggressive right hander hitter which has a major flaw due to the shoulder flying open. I tried everything to help her keep it in without much success. Can someone suggest a successful training drill in order to help keep that shoulder in? Thanks

My nets are marked so we understand where the ball went and then try to understand why. If a tee is placed in the middle of home plate and about two to three inches forward of home plate and we measure off from the back corner of home plate the ball should go up the middle. We use two horizontal lines of 51 and 39 inches high measured from the floor and vertical line exactly in the middle. The height of the tee is 29 inches. We use a PVC stick that is specially weighted and weighs less than 18 ounces. Using the back hand/ top hand we prepare to hit a tennis ball on the tee. They take their lead hand and stretch it out palm down. I stand belly button towards them and stretch out my right hand if they are a RH hitter, palm up and we touch hands and do not inter lock the hands. As they swing they hit the ball off the tee and if done properly our palms of the outstretched hands will remain in contact with each other and they will finish under the outstretched hand. If the front shoulder/ elbow made a bad first move their hand will pull off my hand.

We also do a one knee drill and position the player on their back knee and stretch the lead foot knee out for balance. As I lower my hand to soft toss they determine when to separate their hands rearward slightly and we do not want them to pause or stop and only think changing direction and hit the ball up the middle. We focus on the lead elbow making a good first move forward of about 2 to 3 inches as the back elbow is lowering at the same time and the turn and tilt has begun and try to release the bat barrel of the bat in line with the front end of home plate. By being on the knee we take the legs out of the swing and still feel the twist/ rotation in the upper torso and hip area. We teach how to hit up the middle first, then opposite field next as we feel anyone can pull a ball however can they learn to rotate as needed. Once they understand how to direct the ball using their elbows, shoulders and hands we introduce the legs back into it by doing a drill called face the fire.

They stand behind home plate belly button facing the pitcher with a ball on a tee or I soft toss it. The tee is up the middle, they step with their back foot coming behind and around them and plant the back foot and stride forward with their lead foot. We want them looking through the net as if there was a pitcher standing there and as they begin to turn the bat is held around the top of their shoulders and as they stride they separate and track the ball to the tee as if they would in a game. We do not want them looking at the ball on the tee until they get to touch. This builds the momentum and they try to step without the head moving and we say move their body under their head. The head is the camera and the eyes are the lenses of the camera so keep it steady and land or flow to the ball. Usually the front side pulling out can be associated to stepping open,front foot toe pointed in the direction of the pitcher, stiff front leg, no flex in the knee, stepping flat footed and not stepping on the inside edge of the foot (eversion) and the weight stops shifting and when rotation happens your body is going to give way to the forces being applied. I like this drill verses the walk up drill as it teaches momentum, tracking and the hitter must display some athletic movements during the drill and the pushing off the back side as we think it keeps the weight more inside the back leg than over it.

Thanks Howard

 

[tom.guerry]

one way to conceptualize the desired swing trajectory is that you want the long contact zone/plane matching like Hitter for example has described with balls on a string.

This long contact zone is produced by "early" batspeed, ability to get on plane early and stay there. This in turn requires turning the bat early rather than turning the shoulders. if you over turn the shoulders, you pull off the ball and have a short contact zone prone to high timing error (and slice across the ball as well).

So you need to understand how the shoulders tilt, not just turn. and you have to understand how the hands stay back and turn the bat by forearm swivel in the MLB pattern (which girls can learn if they learn a good overhand throw) so that the elbows are turning and the shoulders tilting and the forearms are swiveling all at the same time.

 

[Hitter]

one way to conceptualize the desired swing trajectory is that you want the long contact zone/plane matching like Hitter for example has described with balls on a string.

This long contact zone is produced by "early" batspeed, ability to get on plane early and stay there. This in turn requires turning the bat early rather than turning the shoulders. if you over turn the shoulders, you pull off the ball and have a short contact zone prone to high timing error (and slice across the ball as well).

So you need to understand how the shoulders tilt, not just turn. and you have to understand how the hands stay back and turn the bat by forearm swivel in the MLB pattern (which girls can learn if they learn a good overhand throw) so that the elbows are turning and the shoulders tilting and the forearms are swiveling all at the same time.

We start top of hands top of shoulder, hands no higher than the ear hole on the helmet. Hands separate rearward slightly keeping the hands from not lowering too much below the top of the shoulder, front shoulder level to down and never up otherwise the back shoulder is down. Way too much shoulder movement and bat angle adjustment for me. The hands separating rearward is where we generate our momentum and adjust for timing and rhythm. I would not start a throw by short arming the ball and to me this lacks momentum and way too much torquing of the bat and again un necessary movement of the bat. We want the hands to stay inside the elbows so we would never stretch the hands as far back as he demonstrated. All they need to do is move the hands rearward and feel the tension and not roll or tuck the shoulder in. Look at Bustos Gold Medal swing, simple and easy to do and teach and results in a 308.5 foot shot. All it has to go is 225 feet ISF max fence distance I think. We have 11 and 12 year girls who can hit the ball 200 feet. Everyone keeps saying MLB swing pattern. Since I teach boy boys and girls the exact same swing why change? I like Bustos swing, so we teach what the big girls uses and it has worked well enough for 70 plus boys and girls to be playing and getting a lot of their education paid for at the next level. In my opinion as much shoulder and bat movement as I saw demonstrated and we have high fly balls and pop ups. Using the swing Crystl and I teach we took Wright State from 22 to home runs to 67 the first year and doubled their offensive out put. Coach Larabee is a quick learner...he is at Arkansas State now so we are waiting to see what he does in the SEC now.

Now going back to the front shoulder flying open...what was the lowering, torquing and dipping of the bat going to prevent from happening?

Thanks Howard

 

[tom.guerry]

Howard -

I think the "short arming" is actually a good type of high level throw to carry over to the swing, much like the way a catcher needs quick arm action to thro a runner out as opposed to the longer arm action of an outfield throw.

Some of the demo here has "exaggeration" aspects as well.

A more exact way to understand the throwing arm action/sequence is by kinesiological sequence as explained by Jeff Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL TAPE. I think you would be vey interested in this info.

This tape is hard to find, so let me know if you would like to review it and I can get you a copy if you have not seen or heard of it.

A HUGE benefit of Hodge's explanation is that he shows how synching back arm to front leg action can be accomplished which works well in teaching girls the front leg action which you have described them as missing.

In both throwing and swinging in the MLB type pattern, the front leg and back arm move in synch for loading and balance is very similar as you have described.

The MLB swing pattern balance is more prolonged on the rear foot than you have described I would say, but that is another discussion.

 

[Hitter]

Howard -

I think the "short arming" is actually a good type of high level throw to carry over to the swing, much like the way a catcher needs quick arm action to thro a runner out as opposed to the longer arm action of an outfield throw.

Some of the demo here has "exaggeration" aspects as well.

A more exact way to understand the throwing arm action/sequence is by kinesiological sequence as explained by Jeff Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL TAPE. I think you would be vey interested in this info.

This tape is hard to find, so let me know if you would like to review it and I can get you a copy if you have not seen or heard of it.

A HUGE benefit of Hodge's explanation is that he shows how synching back arm to front leg action can be accomplished which works well in teaching girls the front leg action which you have described them as missing.

In both throwing and swinging in the MLB type pattern, the front leg and back arm move in synch for loading and balance is very similar as you have described.

The MLB swing pattern balance is more prolonged on the rear foot than you have described I would say, but that is another discussion.

Tom I have heard this before however when you view film and see the difference in throw down times, it is very clear when the hand comes out of the glove with the ball down and the elbow up it can decrease glove to glove times by as much as two tenths of a second. I just did a clinic with Hillhouse, Kobata, Marc and Deb Hartwig. She took the motion you described and went 1/60 at a click and clearly showed what looks quick is slow! When you see the hand just come back and the elbow is down it decreases MPH. I have worked with enough kids to know the difference...we call it short arming. Most of my younger girls throw at 60 to 70 miles an hour and that is faster than just looking quick....been there done that.

If the hands do not move rearward like or similar to throwing you miss the momentum and that is huge in hitting in my opinion. Why would you stride and then cut off the momentum? As to the back foot we load differently by keeping the weight inside the back leg, doing a simple knee cock, head steady and the results are very satisfactory. I have used these techniques at the highest level of the game with the girls and I am very pleased with the results. The high level MLB swing is not all that it is cracked up to be, as was looking for the Holy Grail! Who has found it and by who's definition does it exist? Make the swing measurable and observable that reasonable people could agree upon and then how could we test for it?

Again what does this have to do with the front side opening, shoulder flying open and how to offer a drill to improve it? You are correct on one issue, the female balances differently than the male and can not stand as tall in the box or at toe touch than a male....MLB pattern? Whose pattern and which MLB player and which player historically? MLB his or hers? Try to help the person who answered the question that started the thread which is all that I tried to do. What drill do you recommend?

Thanks Howard

 

[tom.guerry]

Howard said:

"The hands separating rearward is where we generate our momentum and adjust for timing and rhythm. I would not start a throw by short arming the ball"

Comment: I think we may have different meanings of short arming. I like a quick throw as for catcher where you never bend at the throwing elbow more than about 90 degrees which is "short-arming" as compared to an outfield throw where the back arm extends at the elbow during the windup/hand cock. The extension at the elbow takes longer, but both throws are the same mechanical high level pattern.

Sometimes "short arming" can mean a push throw, disconnected from torso turn which is not a good thing in either throwing or swinging.

Howard: "We want the hands to stay inside the elbows so we would never stretch the hands as far back as he demonstrated."


http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TiltIsTheLoad.wmv

Comment: The demo here is from Jeff Edwards who is a scout for the Rockies. He specifically shows avoiding getting the hands outside or too far back. Not sure what you mean here.


Howard: "Everyone keeps saying MLB swing pattern. Since I teach boy boys and girls the exact same swing why change?"

I would say Bustos has an MLB pattern swing which is what you are teaching. People's swing patterns are greatly influenced by what is taught, BUT ultimately there is a finite set of inborn potential patterns that apply to a given task that will direct the swing type, and those patterns existing in the player are the ultimate teacher. You should not change. You should continue to try to assist the player in refining this inborn pattern and not mixing it with other patterns (like getting to the front foot early and turning the shoulders like heck which can work quite well in golf off a tee).

Howard: "Now going back to the front shoulder flying open...what was the lowering, torquing and dipping of the bat going to prevent from happening?"

Torquing the handle via well coordinated and sequenced (as part of the pattern) forearm twist, elbow turn and shoulder tilt uses energy that turns the bat and reactively RESISTS turning with the hips that are turning the lower body.

A good pattern does NOT "dip the bat" too much, but rather produces the slight UPswing that Ted Williams described that could be adjusted to create a long contact zone. Cues that Williams liked according to Epstein include "getting hands flat ASAP" and "scooping sand with the top hand" and are similar to the upright "waiter's forearm" position you have mentioned.

The SHOULDERS therefore do not excessively/prematurely/actively turn open, but rather stay back with the hands as the bat turns which then produces a quicker and better controlled "stretch and fire" between the hips and the scaps as the hips thrust/snap.

Howard: "it is very clear when the hand comes out of the glove with the ball down and the elbow up it can decrease glove to glove times by as much as two tenths of a second."

Comment: See short arming comment above. I agree that all good throws should start with breaking the hands with elbows up and palms down. A more specific description which better supports analysis and teaching and communication is the kinesiological description of the throw by Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape. You should always break the hands with INternal rotation and aBduction. There should then always be Synched EXternal rotation of the back arm and front leg. The lead arm should then stay INternally rotated as this synched EXternal rotation takes place.

This is a simple thing to learn and teach, not something that has to go "over people's heads".

If you think of short arming as a flawed "push" throw where the arms break with palms up and elbows down, then you are dead as well as putting huge unnecessary stress on the shoulder joint/rotator cuff/etc.

Hodge's tape explains well how to reduce shoulder and elbow stress analogous to the lower KNEE stress you have discussed.

Howard: "MLB pattern? Whose pattern and which MLB player and which player historically? MLB his or hers? "

Comment: The MLB pattern is by definition a "universal" one present in those players who have honed this particular inborn potential pattern among the finite choices they were born with. Virtually all proficient MLB hitters show this pattern, as does Bustos and some other FP hitters.

A pattern is something the same person can immediately drop in and out of as well, so that is another factor.

As compared to other patterns in Bustos and MLB hitters shoulders "stay in there" much the same way they do in the overhand throw.


Howard: "Try to help the person who answered the question that started the thread which is all that I tried to do. What drill do you recommend?"

I have no original stuff, but just copy what works best from others. The Hodge throwing drills are simple and effective.

I like to teach throwing and swinging with the same approach. The KEY to keeping the shoulder in there in the throw is the right arm action sequence (both arms) and particularly the emphasis on keeping the INternal rotation in the lead arm as the torso turns/unloads.

I use simple sequenced steps in the overhand throw:

get sideways to target

break hands with elbows up and palms down (INternal rotation and Abduction).

when the throwing hand lifts up, the front leg turns over (synched external rotation).

reach for the money with the glove hand (this keeps the lead arm internally rotated which is necessary to avoid flying open). You pretend there is a $100 dollar bill on the glove of the catcher/target and keep the front hand/palm facing the target to grab the money rather than turning the arm over(EXternally) rotating it early.

keep head/weight back of center until torso turn starts to bring the throwing arm forward, then bring the weight forward quickly landing on firm flexed front leg and stay on top of ball, with a pronating finish at various heights depending on length of throw, shorter arm for catcher (finish wist high), longer for outfielder (finish by ankles).


Via throwing well, you have learned to use the whole body in a coordinated fashion with good timing and synch of the upper and lower body and good coiling and uncoiling or "flow" with what Williams called the "metronomic" back and forth action of the hips.

The same early loading action controls coil and keeps the shoulder in while the hips are opened some by toe touch. At "GO" there is the simultaneous forearm twist,elbow turn and shoulder tilt that keeps the shoulder in there while the bat turns. This motion is VERY DIFFERENT from how the motion continues in the overhand throw, but the preparation up until this point is very similar.

Below is the "POLE" or "snap swivel stop" drill with emphasis on not turning and pulling with the shoulders, but keeping the front shoulder in there:

YouTube - AHIC 6

Here is a thread with a number of other drills that address some other aspects of the pattern, see first post embedded youtube clips:

- HI Atlanta Clinic Videos

If you can throw, you can hit.

 

[tom.guerry]

Best overall throwing program I have seen is Ron Wolforth (pitchingcentral/athleticpitcher/pitchingbootcamp/rnch/etc), based in part on Nyman/setpro info (which is good for throw but not for swing), see embedded youtube:

- Ron Wolforth (reviews needed)

 

[RayR]

Back to the original topic. My feeling is if the lower body works correctly and there is separation the front shoulder problem will go away.

 

[tom.guerry]

MTS-

I think if you pull the knob instead of turning the bat, then the shoulder will fly open. The shoulders and hips are slaved to how the hands are used.

The hands and elbows and shoulders are primarily used to turn the knob.

the hips move metronomically turning back and forth to work with the knob turning to stretch and coil the torso, and then the shoulders connect and turn when the torso uncoils/unloads.

If you try to turn the shoulders rather than use them to assist in turning the knob, then you force "rushing" which prematurely unloads the torso interfering with swing quickness and ability to keep the hands back

 

[Hitter]

Best overall throwing program I have seen is Ron Wolforth (pitchingcentral/athleticpitcher/pitchingbootcamp/rnch/etc), based in part on Nyman/setpro info (which is good for throw but not for swing), see embedded youtube:

- Ron Wolforth (reviews needed)

You lost me Tom....We teach pulling the glove in and finishing across the body as to throwing....a simple martial arts move used for 1,100 years! This is not new information just another way to regurgitate it? and sell a throwing technique in my opinion. I do not buy into it myself as the results we achieve speak for it self. Tom I have received PM's and emails and frankly if you are indeed a doctor do you choose to communicate this way and or confuse your patients to satisfy your ego or help them? How does it help someone or is it to serve an ego you have tried to manifest for some reason?

I have and always have tried to help others learn what we teach to help others learn and play the game at the next level and for myself to learn from others by what they teach and sharing information. The group is always stronger than the individuals knowledge and is always supported by behavioral analysis of those dynamics. Are you adding to the process of learning or just miss directing with verbiage and video's that I find distracting as the actual process of your teaching seems to lack a fundamental understanding of how the students learn. Why would intentionally do this with parents and coaches and possibly players who are seeking more knowledge?

Now where is your information for the front shoulder and or a drills to support how to correct it?

MTS thank you for the video as this makes it simple...Tom is there a reason for making this confusing?

Thanks Howard