Escalation of Commitment

[BuckeyeGuy]

She wants to be a musician...than you should go all in.

Put her into music camp. Buy her the best equipment available. Get her the best instructors. Push her...make sure she practices. Put her in competitions against people better than her.

It will be good for you too. It is time for you to learn about something new. Expand your universe a little.

I sort of let this slide 1st time through, but just as an FYI: we already do all that. She plays 3 different brass instruments (trumpet, baritone, tuba), sight-reads bass and treble clef, mentors her peers in the school band and plays in the extracurricular jazz band (as does DS), has a private instructor. We push her to play difficult pieces, and she's entered her 1st solo competition for this Feb. I play guitar as does DS (and he plays cello and stand-up bass). Both of them have surpassed my skills and knowledge and I couldn't be prouder. We attend all of their performances.

 

[BobInMadison]

I sort of let this slide 1st time through, but just as an FYI: we already do all that. She plays 3 different brass instruments (trumpet, baritone, tuba), sight-reads bass and treble clef, mentors her peers in the school band and plays in the extracurricular jazz band (as does DS), has a private instructor. We push her to play difficult pieces, and she's entered her 1st solo competition for this Feb. I play guitar as does DS (and he plays cello and stand-up bass). Both of them have surpassed my skills and knowledge and I couldn't be prouder. We attend all of their performances.

Good for your kids. Good for you for supporting them, but they did all the work.

One thing to consider: is it too much for your DD to try to be really good at so many things?

Every kid is different. I remember when DD #3 was in the 5th grade. At one point, within a few months:
she was chosen as one of two kids in her school orchestra to play solos for their performances, including a performance by the better musicians at a nursing home.
She was part of a school choir that sang the National Anthem on opening day for the local minor league baseball team.
She won a local Native American kids' art contest (not just her age group, but first prize overall. They even made a cake out of her drawing for a Native American graduation ceremony, and she ate a piece that had some Cherokee writing on it. She ate her words.)
She was one of two 10u age girls chosen to play 12u rec ball at the West Madison Little League.
She made the 10u all-stars, and won the first tournament she played in. Double elimination, they had to win the last two games. In one game she got the save as a pitcher, and struck out the last 2 batters. In the other game, she got the game-winning hit, a double with bases loaded.

She could do all of that as a fifth grader. It is hard for her to be good at so many things anymore.
Since then, she gave up playing instruments.
She isn't much of a singer, but had bit parts in a couple of school musicals.
She likes to draw, but hasn't entered any more contests.
She tried playing volleyball and ultimate Frisbee with varying degrees of success.
I once had her enter a track meet, and she won her heat. No ribbons, though, and she lost interest in track after that.
She has become a much better softball pitcher/player.
She has a 3.98 average in middle school (once got a B in a gym class because she was too sore after a softball tournament to run a mile and didn't want to just walk the mile, which would've given her a 4.00).

She doesn't put as much time into some of these things as I would like. I was disappointed that she gave up music, since she seemed to love it. She could've pursued art more, but it is just a hobby for her. She could practice a LOT more on her pitching, but sometimes she just wants to relax and just hang out. When she is at practice, she gives it 100%, but sometimes she just doesn't want to practice that much. That's OK. Softball is her hobby, not her entire life. She got into Frisbee not because she's that good at it (although she could be a really good Ultimate Frisbee player if she really wanted to be), but because her friend was into it and she wanted to hang out with her friend. Just like DD #1 got to be a good softball player, but only played to hang out with her friends.

Kids' interests wane and wax. Frustrating, but that is the interesting thing about watching them grow up.

 

[Lickety Split]

Well, Lickety Split, you have certainly made a passionate investment in the conversation. You make some worthy observations, but I fear your anger clouded what might have been a thoughtful and useful response. Nobody here will question you're right to express disagreement; perhaps, however, we could tone down the personal insults a bit. Buckeye has taken the risk of revealing a personal struggle with us. I'm pretty sure he wasn't looking to become the little critter in a whack-a-mole game. Understood

You indicate he over-reacted. No, I never said he over-reacted because he did not over-react, he didn't react at all, it was a well thought out decision that he pondered over time. I think perhaps he did. My interpretation is that he gave his DD choices and some responsibility for those choices, but seemed more motivated by his own frustration than by his what was best for his DD. Don't read for a moment that I think he doesn't care deeply for his DD. Just saying that in the conversation he described I felt like his frustration was more at the front of his thoughts. Not ideal, maybe, but every parent knows both sides of that line. He did not give her a choice, he told her not to try out for MS

Based on my read of your comments, you are not a parent who coaches, or at least who hasn't coached his or her own child. There can be some very challenging tensions that can't possibly be understood if they haven't been experienced. When you expect every kid on the team to stretch limits and improve - which requires trusting the coach implicitly - and your own kid won't buy in, you can have a real problem as a coach. It can put a lot of pressure on your kid, too. I hope that's obvious to you. It is obvious to me. I have actually coached, and still do. At one time I was managing or coaching 5 teams at once, all with my kids. I get the struggles with having your own child on the team, and the challenge of being DAD or COACH and finding when you need to be sympathetic with your child or tough/fair relative to the rest of the team. I get all that, I really do, it's very different inside the fence and white lines; so yes, I can relate. Sometimes kids do better with other leadership that doesn't carry "home baggage" with it. I've coached my DD (14yo) through Rec Ball, middle school, and I'm still coaching (AC) her TB team. Now that she's in High School, I'm giving her a break for the school team (not that the HC for school would take me on, but I'm not going to offer). DD and I have worked well with the agreement that I will be only a coach on the field and she will be only a player, but she's still wishes for a little more space at times. It seems to me that Buckeye has a pretty good handle on this issue, and he's to be commended for wrestling with it honestly. Many, maybe most, coaches/parents don't even seek that fine point of balance. I don't think he does, and this is the problem I have. He decided that if his daughter was NOT going to push push push and practice with heart and soul than she shouldn't play at all, especially on his team, because he couldn't take it any longer. It was driving him crazy, how lax she was about softball. The lesson he taught her was that if you are not going to push to be elite, then don't bother. And I guess he would apply this philosophy to everything and anything. This is the perception he displayed in his post. If I am wrong with how I read into his post then I am at fault, but this is clearly the message I received.

I offer that perspective on coaching as someone who also has about 15 years of experience as a certified BSA leader, which I note from your post is of value to you. It is to me as well. I held positions from Assistant Scoutmaster to Unit Commissioner, with a couple others in between. Both my sons are Eagle Scouts. So am I. So was my father. And my brother and his son. That's a pretty solid commitment from a family over generations. So I believe I'm qualified to say that coaching your own child at a level of high expectation is tougher than helping him through scouts - even as one of the troop leaders. There's a lot of room in scouts for boys to work at their own pace. The best sports teams need all players committing their best efforts together and at once for the common goal of the team.

Now, I would say that a rec team can accept a casual commitment (although I always expected more, and generally got it). But a school team or a travel team should expect more. Players unwilling to make a more extraordinary commitment to a sport should be able to enjoy rec ball. Otherwise they drag a team down. Please be clear here. I'm not talking about reaching some "competitive level," but about a competitive EFFORT. That's important enough a distinction to say it again. It's about a competitive EFFORT. Buckeye isn't unhappy about the level. It's about the EFFORT.

My DD knows that playing softball is up to her. She's committed to it to such a level, however, that I expect her to pursue her highest abilities. She shares that expectation. In fact, right now (almost 10:30pm) she's trying to finish her homework so she can spend a few minutes on some pitching drills before she goes to bed. Tonight she doesn't really want to do drills. I'm making her do them tonight, but cutting back to just 10 minutes worth so she honors her personal commitment to improve while honoring the greater importance of her schoolwork. Last night, I had to stop her practice so she could get back to homework. If she loses the drive to play, however, she can stop at her choice. I will weep uncontrollably for a time and then let her move on. I might keep coaching, because I really enjoy it.

Which brings me to this note. We all want our kids to enjoy certain things we as parents have enjoyed over our lives. We want to share that experience of common appreciation over something that binds us. I hear Buckeye expressing a loss of something he truly wanted to share with his daughter that she hasn't shown to same interest in. I don't see anything wrong with that presenting him with some tough moments. If she never comes back to ball, I'm sure something else will develop; that doesn't make today any easier. Well put

I don't want my kids to try and be great at everything. I couldn't care less if they become experts at video games. But I expect them to be their own best at something - something they love. For one DS, it's music. For another - well - nobody knows where he's going to land (but he's on his own, gainfully employed, and has never been arrested!). For DD, it's softball. We all need something to pursue with our heart and dreams. And as parents, I suggest that it is our responsibility to help our kids discover and pursue those dreams to their fullest. It's unclear what your daughter will choose to pursue. But since she apparently has your permission to tell you F ... off when you expect a high standard, I'm guessing you won't share the joy and satisfaction of that pursuit with her. More's the pity. Well, you don't know anything about us and I'm not about to share. You want to form an opinion about our life and our values, have at it.

(Almost forgot to mention my wife. DW catches most of DD's pitching practices and attends most of her hitting lessons. But we don't let her play in the games because she doesn't really understand dropped 3rd strikes or foul tips.)

See BOLD print above for replies.


I've read or skimmed through most of the comments, and I'm not about to get in a back and forth marathon of posts. I'll simply say I am not an A_____E, trust me. He posted what he posted and unfortunately my reaction is probably not what he was hoping to hear. He wanted to hear, "good choice", "you did the right thing", "I feel for you", etc. to make himself feel good that he did the right thing, and most of you gave him that. Well I don't see it that way. The message he gave me was that if his daughter wasn't going to strive to be elite, or practice like all the other girls do then don't bother playing. If you're all telling me you support his call to tell her not to try out for the MS team, then I'm either totally out of touch or I need to wake up so this nightmare will end.

 

[djcarter1966]

Told DD tonight that it's going to be on her to choose from here on out. She gets to decide what level, if any she wants to play at. She has to come to me if she wants to practice, otherwise I'm going to assume she's OK with where she's at.

Also told her that she absolutely should try out for the school team if she wants to, and encouraged her to give 100% when/if she does.

It's hard to let go, but as many of you have pointed out - it needs to be about her, not me.

@Lickety and this is why you should not skim things but actually read them.

As you said no real reason to rehash this forever...and I don't think anyone thinks you're an A____E, just quick a little quick on the trigger and harsh with the tone that's all and the smiley and winkey emoticons means it's all water under the bridge and we can all move on hopefully

 

[Lickety Split]

@Lickety and this is why you should not skim things but actually read them.

As you said no real reason to rehash this forever...and I don't think anyone thinks you're an A____E, just quick a little quick on the trigger and harsh with the tone that's all and the smiley and winkey emoticons means it's all water under the bridge and we can all move on hopefully

Yeah, I actually read that after my post; turns out I was the one with the knee-jerk reaction. I'm not here to make enemies or get everyone in an uproar. Life goes on and all is well in Love and War; well, maybe not war. (Ma Bailey)

 

[sluggers]

She plays 3 different brass instruments (trumpet, baritone, tuba), sight-reads bass and treble clef, mentors her peers in the school band and plays in the extracurricular jazz band (as does DS), has a private instructor. We push her to play difficult pieces, and she's entered her 1st solo competition for this Feb. I play guitar as does DS (and he plays cello and stand-up bass). Both of them have surpassed my skills and knowledge and I couldn't be prouder. We attend all of their performances.

That is tremendous. That is quite an accomplishment.

But, you aren't seeing the big picture. Objectively, she, and you, already chose music over sports.

Catching is no place for her. She will definitely get her hands hurt--jammed fingers and bruised palms. She could also get a broken finger or two. Most likely, none of the injuries will be serious, but there is definitely a risk.

If I were her, I would take up tennis, swimming or cross-country.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

I'll simply say I am not an A_____E, trust me.

Folks, don't feed the troll.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

That is tremendous. That is quite an accomplishment.

But, you aren't seeing the big picture. Objectively, she, and you, already chose music over sports.

Catching is no place for her. She will definitely get her hands hurt--jammed fingers and bruised palms. She could also get a broken finger or two. Most likely, none of the injuries will be serious, but there is definitely a risk.

If I were her, I would take up tennis, swimming or cross-country.

Oh I totally expect her to get a music scholarship somewhere lol! D1 full ride, baby!

But she wants to catch, and if she's enjoying it I want to support her and encourage her in that.

BTW, in the couple of days since I reversed myself and started doing as most of you suggested by just supporting her, she is much happier. I don't know that it will last, she's 13 going on 30 or 3 depending on the day, but letting her set the intensity level is already paying off for us. Thanks for that. Oh, and she's excited to try out for the MS team.

 

[sluggers]

Does your DD do Merry Tuba Xmas?

 

[jacman]

See BOLD print above for replies.

I've read or skimmed through most of the comments, and I'm not about to get in a back and forth marathon of posts. I'll simply say I am not an A_____E, trust me. He posted what he posted and unfortunately my reaction is probably not what he was hoping to hear. He wanted to hear, "good choice", "you did the right thing", "I feel for you", etc. to make himself feel good that he did the right thing, and most of you gave him that. Well I don't see it that way. The message he gave me was that if his daughter wasn't going to strive to be elite, or practice like all the other girls do then don't bother playing. If you're all telling me you support his call to tell her not to try out for the MS team, then I'm either totally out of touch or I need to wake up so this nightmare will end.

Not sure we need to call a truce yet, but can we agree to one before it becomes necessary?

We've read a few things differently. I clearly see Buckeye as offering to keep his DD in rec ball, but discouraging MS or TB if she lacks the attitude and effort to fit into the team atmosphere. And I'm good with that. She would be as miserable in that setting (and apparently is already) as he, which doesn't seem all that healthy to me. He also left her with the option to step it up, as long as she initiated the move. I'm good with that, too. So I don't see him closing her out, just tightening up the ground rules a little.

Is he looking for a little sympathy from the group here? Maybe. Likely, even. I probably would be, too. He too a big step and what he saw as a big risk with his daughter that could affect not only softball, but their relationship overall. He shared his uncertainties about it here; I'm sure he'd be resting much easier if everybody rubber stamped his actions. Of course this forum isn't a very good place to get blanket affirmations, so I also think he wanted some honest feedback from people.

Please accept my genuine admiration for your involvement with your own kids. You worked with 5 teams and multiple children at once? My wife and I barely keep up with the only one left at home. If I were wearing a hat right now, I'd be tipping it to you.

A final note. A suggestion actually, if you will. Please be careful about trying to walk both sides of the fence. When you stated, "Well, you don't know anything about us and I'm not about to share. You want to form an opinion about our life and our values, have at it," you were taking me to task for interpreting some of your own remarks about your family in a way that wasn't too flattering. You have every right to call me on that. If I wanted to defend myself, I'd respond with "But that's the only information you gave me to evaluate." Clearly it wasn't enough to understand the full picture of your family dynamic, even though your description of your DD's hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation hit me as stark and stunning. What I believe we do in the DFP community is exactly what happened here. Someone gives information and the rest respond, hopefully in a way that is respectful and helpful (but not in a way that is always easy). So in the give and take we have a chance to clarify and express and challenge and disagree and all that. It's what I think all of us are about here.

Can you see that you did the same thing to Buckeye that you accused me of? You formed an opinion about his life and values, and truthfully, you buried him when it struck you the wrong way. We should all feel free to challenge each other. I've been lit into a couple of times here. So be it. Part of the process. Some days we do better than others.

Anyway, if there's a hatchet out, shall we bury it? And not in each other's heads?