do i pull or push?

[tom.guerry]

here is another important reference adhering to the Hansen principle, see for example grip info/pronation/etc:

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/presentations/Swingbuster_totalpresentation.pdf

 

[tom.guerry]

well-

The best description of how the arms/hands/shoulders turn the bat throughout the swing is, in my opinion, at hittingillustrated.com.

Basically it requires keeping a good elbow spread (as Epstein describes with reciprocal elbow action), turning the elbows, tilting the shoulders (drop and TILT) and twisting the forearms (get hands flat ASAP/scoop sand) all at the same time during the "drop and tilt".

This has to be prerpared for with the right grip and forearm positioning and the right loading sequence (very similar to overhand throw) to wind the rubberband and stride forward to balance, all much as Epstein describes.

You might want to check that site out, especially the concepts of "second engine" and "single leg hitting" and "palm up extension".

 

[Wellphyt]

Tom:

I have been to HI.com a couple of times searching for info, however I'm unable to access the boards. Do I need to sign up to access the boards?

I'm pretty confident I have the upper body correct. The Epstein "Torque Drill" does a really good job of getting the hitter to feel how the shoulders rotate and tilt at the same time. I've done hundreds of swings myself in the "Torque Drill" position and the movement is very natural to me.

My issue is with the lower half. I'm close with my dd, but I'm not there yet. She's getting the rear hip around and forward, but she doesn't have enough momentum/push/drive or whatever it's called. We're going to do some Happy Gilmore drills to help her feel what needs to happen.

Epstein's "Number 2" position is great to teach what seperation feels like when the hips are triggered, as well as teaching to trigger the hips prior to heel plant, but now I need to figure out how to teach my dd how to generate more momentum to drive her hips around.

Based on clips of Epstein's students I know he knows how to teach it, but I don't believe my DVDs cover how to teach it.

I've heard HI.com has some good information on the lower body, but I think I need to join to access it. Still thinking about it.

 

[tom.guerry]

well -

I think you sign up a month at a time with first month free. The fee is because it has a lot of storage so members can keep their own clip libraries.

I would go there and see especially the "second engine" forum which is a summary where you can see how much it lines up with Epstein, but also go to private hitting forum and ask about the lower body/single leg hitting concept.

 

[class_of_2012]

Coach Guerry, thanks for the HI and Epstein links! i just got back from a weekend clinic. as stupid as this sounds, i was unaware of either of those sites. i'm dying to read the ted williams stuff but i am having trouble printing it now at the public computer i am at. i love the clips of the hitter on HI!

also, notice that pujols does not "maintain the (inverted) V" in his stance as he loads. his load seems to be a long load, whereas mine is just a few inches back with the hands. one of my coaches thinks having your front/bottom arm straight or nearly straigh/horizontal at load is a recipe for disaster since tense muscles do not react as fast as loose ones. she said she would pitch me inside all day if i did that. my hitting coach (an old baseball guy) does do that though but he has never corrected my inverted V. i believe candrea also recommends the V but i am not sure.

pujols also seems to be leading with his top hand elbow, and not his top hand. or at least the elbow and hand come at the same time. i saw on siggy's site though that this is known as "bat drag" and is to be avoided. but pujols seems to be getting away with hit!

and pujols drops his bat barrel/hands a little as he goes to the ball, something my coaches are trying to get me to stop doing, since this casues me to pop up alot, especially for outside.

i wish there was a clip of him in his base stance, then loading. they all start from the loaded position.

 

[class_of_2012]

for the hitting illustrated forum, after your 30 day trial runs out, can you just register a new user name and get another 30 days for free or do you have to pay then? i'd rather save for the nyman e-book on setpro if i had a choice.

also there don't seem to be a lot of threads on the forum to bother paying a subscription fee for usage.

 

[class_of_2012]

More for 2012 -

Getting these arm actions/sequences right through contact is EXTREMELY important. The whole action is geared to things unfolding/releasing right on the approach to contact. One way to work on this is with so-called "backward training drills" where you practice pieces or chunks of the action from the end of the motion back which you can do with 1 or 2 arm drills.

As a basis for video study, look at these still pictures of BONDS interpreted by Epstein (who played for and follows Williams method):

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=3rodGDdat2c=&tabid=64&mid=393

One of the things swing people talk about is the "hinge angle" by which they mean the hammering action/uncocking of the lead (not rear) wrist. The way this action works is that the bathead will accelerate to top speed (release) to where it lines up with the lead forearm. There is question about whether or not you should try to "hold" this hinge with the grip and release it late or not. The downside of "holding the hinge" is that is can interfere with swing quickness of force contact too far out front.

What actually is "HELD" is the back wrist position, dorsiflexed ("unbroken") and radially deviated ("cocked"). Tryingmto hold the lead wrist just messes up timing and quickness. So you need to lear how the hands/arms/release works for quickness and deep contact, somewhat seperately for each arm/hand.

Look at Bonds back wrist just before contact in the "slotting" picture at the link above.

and look at all the pictures to see what "palmup extension" of the back arm looks like.

At contact, the top hand is sill palm up, but the lead hand has often started to "roll". Ideally the bat is just lining up with the lead forearm.

hi! i looked through coach epstein's site. is what he teaches considered standard? i saw the first picture from his camp slideshow (Photos ...boy in red shirt...sorry i cant post it here directly), and the bottom hand elbow really high up horrified me and would definitely horrify my hitting coach. he calls that "chicken winging".

furthermore, the camp pic brought up nightmares from a college clinic i went to where the head coach had a bizarre hitting style. her hitting style was so bizarre i was about to walk out of the clinic. and the players there told me they too were freaked when she introduced it to them. and wouldn't you know it: i went to the epstein "rising stars" testimonials page and there was that very same head coach giving an endorsement for this hitting method!

EDIT: after looking at some of the epstein fastpitch videos, it looks like the girls are not driving their legs, and instead, just rotating the back one. they also lean their upper torso back on contact and follow thru. it seems this would cause them to get under the ball. maybe i am not seeing this right. i might be wrong.

i guess epstein is a rotational instructor??? i don't know what to think.

 

[tom.guerry]

2012 -

Your observationa about the exaggerrated apearance of the front elbow in Epstein students is a very good one.

Well also uses Epstein, so he may have some input as well, but I think this exaggeration is often necessary to break the lunging and shoulder flying open flaws, especially as used in conjunction with other aspects of his system suich as striding to balance and winding the rubber band/etc which I believe works well together as a whole.

Wellphyt ?

 

[Wellphyt]

2012-

The boy in the red shirt has his elbows all wrong. The expression on the instructors face confirms this.

Epstein does emphasize keeping the lead elbow at a 90 degee angle. Depending on pitch location, many elite hitters keep the lead elbow bent at 90 degrees right up until contact. Check out the Caitlin Benyi video clip floating around the internet. Keeping the lead elbow bent at 90 degrees assures that the hands follow the rotating upper torso and assures that the hands stay close to the body. The closer the hands are to the body, the quicker the swing.

As you know, on an inside pitch the hitter must make contact out in front of the front knee requiring a very quick swing. Keeping the lead elbow bent 90 degrees heading into contact gives the hitter the ability to hit the middle-half-in pitch without getting jammed. Ted Williams once said that history is made on the inside half of the
plate. My dd really loves the inside pitch (btw she has her lead arm horizontal to the ground when she loads similar to Ted).

I consider Eptein's emphasis on keeping the lead elbow at 90 degrees as his default/base pattern for the proper rotational swing. However Epstein also emphasizes another point that is often discounted or overlooked. He frequently says that the perfect swing is the "adjustment the hitter makes to the oncoming pitch". I would then add to his statement something that Don Slaught has said, which is the body is designed to work from the inside out. Slaught goes on to say that if we are prepared as hitters to hit the up and in pitch, our bodies will instinctively release the angles in the elbows as needed to make adjustments to other pitch locations.

Epstein believes that a big part of hitting is instinctive. IMO it is very important to have mechanics which allow the hitter to make on-the-fly adjustments. Epstein is on record saying that 95% of MLB swings are less than optimum swings.

The rotational swing is not a grooved swing. The rotational swing allows for an infinite number of swing variations. It is impossible to teach every swing variation that rotational hitting allows. Epstein teaches the basic rotational pattern as he sees it with the understanding that the pattern has to give the hitter the ability to quickly adjust when the hitter guesses wrong on pitch location or speed.

As far as some of the clips of FP girls not driving their back leg, I would say you may have a point. I would then refer you to
the video clip of the Fleck kid in the baseball hitting clip section of his site. There is no doubt from that clip and others that Epstein knows how to teach proper hip drive. However his DVDs do not make it clear how to teach it. I've been told by a reliable source that what is taught in his camps is more involved than what is on his DVDs.
Right now my dd's rear hip drive is less than optimum. We are slowly working on it. If I could figure out how to post a video of her, you would see what I mean.

I'm not going to say that Epstein has all the answers. However I do believe that his material should be at least part of the puzzle. He has a lot right, he keeps it simple, he has a proven track record and he post video clips of his students from beginners to those more advanced.

Anybody can take a video clip of an established Olympic FP player or MLB player, draw colored lines and tell you what they are doing and how to do it, and then tell you how their DVD can teach you the same swing. But can they back it up with examples of 12 year olds, 15 year olds, or highschool kids hitting the way they teach?

 

[class_of_2012]

2012-

I consider Eptein's emphasis on keeping the lead elbow at 90 degrees as his default/base pattern for the proper rotational swing. However Epstein also emphasizes another point that is often discounted or overlooked. He frequently says that the perfect swing is the "adjustment the hitter makes to the oncoming pitch". I would then add to his statement something that Don Slaught has said, which is the body is designed to work from the inside out. Slaught goes on to say that if we are prepared as hitters to hit the up and in pitch, our bodies will instinctively release the angles in the elbows as needed to make adjustments to other pitch locations.

thanks well for your evaluation of epstein! i always look for the inside pitch and then adjust to mid and outside ones if i have to. the reason is if i look for an outside pitch and it is inside actually, i will be too late in adjusting to that and be jammed. but i can always hold back a little and hit the outside one later.

contradictorily, my hitting coach tells me i should always be looking for/expect my best pitch (middle of plate and knee to waist high) and adjust to others. maybe wehn i get more advanced i will be able to do that and have quick enough reactions still to go after the inside.

Epstein believes that a big part of hitting is instinctive. IMO it is very important to have mechanics which allow the hitter to make on-the-fly adjustments. Epstein is on record saying that 95% of MLB swings are less than optimum swings.

thats so true! looking at all the pujols clips on HI.com it is easy to see that his swing varies from swing to swing and even he does not do everything optimally most of the time!