do i pull or push?

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May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
2012 -

These terms tend to be vague and inconsistently used and interpreted. The best way to keep them straight is in anatomical terms. See the forearm and wrist sections here in this case:

Joint Articulations and Movements

pronation is a forearm twisting action that turns a flat palm down.

If our arm is straight, internal rotation of the upper arm can do the same thing.

the sequence of back and front arm action is always the same pattern for the MLB swing.

so if you think "ideally" thet the palms are "flat"/up/down (in reality, the main requirment here is "palmup extension" -"supinated" in this case of the back arm/top hand, NOT pronated) this means the lead palm is pronated by the internal rotation of the upper arm and pronation of the lead forearm, and while it is pronated, the lead wrist uncocks or unhinges primarily by wrist ADduction.

in the actual sequence in the MLB swing, this uncocking of the lead wrist happens while the top hand wrist is will "cocked" (Williams described wanting the top hand wrist "unbroken" at contact. What he was describing here is a top hand wrist that remains "extended" (another term is "dorsiflexed) while the back arm extends at the elbow as the lead wrist uncocks/aDducts/"unhinges", then the back arm/top hand "palm-up" wrist can uncock/finish "breaking" by aDduction.

This gets back to the "push/pull" question. The baseball grip is to support a two handed action which is turning the handle throughout the forward swing. If you have to say one thing is dominant, I would agree with Williams that it is ultimately a top hand power "push" swing, but it is better to understand how the upper body turns the bat throughout the swing with pushes and pulls via two handed action.

See if you can use the correct anatomical terms to understand and keep this straight.
 
Sep 11, 2008
74
0
caifornia
mr. guerry, your knowledge really amazes me! i've printed out your last post too and will try to sit down tonight and digest it. when my hitting coach tells me to cock or "pronate" my wrists, he means that in the loaded position, i should flex my wrists toward my top hand arm forearm...toward the top hand forearm side that is halfway between the palm side of the forearm and the thumb side of the forearm. he then wants me to uncock my wrists as i throw the bat into the hitting plane. these are his terms. this is meant to mimick and hammer action upon contact. i'm not sure if this is how williams meant it in his book.
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
0
Opinions vary on the accuracy of Tom's knowledge, but it sure sounds impressive at first glance. Reading Tom was where I started studying all this stuff some ten years ago. As always, compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. And make sure they actually train hitters with the theories they espouse. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
2012 -

The illustrations/video in the link will let you keep things straight.

Joint Articulations and Movements

Have this available for study when you read SCIENCE OF HITTING or try to sort out what your coach is describing and look at video.

The usual meaning of "hammering" with the wrists in baseball/fastpitch is wrist ADduction.

This is usually the same as "uncocking the wrists" with a powerful hammering action, like driving nails.

Williams also used the term "tackhammer" action of the wrist by which he meant a less powerful/finesse type of hammering action which anatomically/kinesiologically would be primarily wrist "flexion" or "palmar flexion. He made the point that you should AVOID this type of hammering action.

aDduction is deviating the wrist toward the pinky side, not thumb side and is also called ULNAR deviation because it is moving/deviating the wrist toward the forearm bone above the pinky (ULNA).

The forearm bone on/above the thumb side is the RADIUS, so "cocking the wrists" is ABduction or "RADIAL deviation".


these "cocking and uncocking" actions are slightly different from what Williams called "breaking the wrist" mainly with regard to top hand wrist which involves taking a cocked/unbroken wrist (wrist that is ABducted/radially deviated and dorsiflexed/extended/hyperextended) and breaking it by flexion/palmar-flexion and ADduction/ulnar deviation.

So one thing Williams is describing is that the 2 wrists do not ADduct at the same time, the lead wrist always goes first because it has to unhinge to accelerate the bathead. The top hand is affecting/controlling timing of this acceleration by how much force it applies/when via "palmup extension" of the back arm/top hand powered by extension at the back elbow (triceps extension to highlight the primary muscle action creating thrust here).

Williams also mentions "rolling the wrist" which is mainly pronation of the top hand forearm and internal rotation of the back arm which turns the top hand palmover to face down.

Williams recommended trying to hit with the top hand wrist unbroken at contact, or in any case making contact before the top hand wrist rolled. Another way to describe this would be "palmup extension" of the back arm.

The top hand wrist can still be "unbroken"/dorsiflexed/extended at contact while the lead/bottom wrist has uncocked/unhinged/aDducted/hammered (power hammer action not finesse tackhammer action).

See Williams' usage in SCIENCE OF HITTING and see link above and look at video.

The wrists in the MLB swing need to be used in a push/pull way (more like a split grip,not like a single hinge as in golf) to turn the bat and this unbroken top hand wrist position (some combo of dorsiflexion and radial deviation) encourages the right action from early in the swing preparation.

The grip is important in hitting just as in golf.
 
May 27, 2008
106
0
Indiana
As always, compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.


Great advice, Mark. I almost forgot about that, but Class of 2012, if you take Mark's advice you will see what Tom is talking about. Tom is pretty smart about this stuff and knows the swing. I know one high level D-1 coach Tom has had a lot of influence on and the coach has the hitters to prove it.

Thanks again, Mark. :D
Mike
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
More for 2012 -

Getting these arm actions/sequences right through contact is EXTREMELY important. The whole action is geared to things unfolding/releasing right on the approach to contact. One way to work on this is with so-called "backward training drills" where you practice pieces or chunks of the action from the end of the motion back which you can do with 1 or 2 arm drills.

As a basis for video study, look at these still pictures of BONDS interpreted by Epstein (who played for and follows Williams method):

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=3rodGDdat2c=&tabid=64&mid=393

One of the things swing people talk about is the "hinge angle" by which they mean the hammering action/uncocking of the lead (not rear) wrist. The way this action works is that the bathead will accelerate to top speed (release) to where it lines up with the lead forearm. There is question about whether or not you should try to "hold" this hinge with the grip and release it late or not. The downside of "holding the hinge" is that is can interfere with swing quickness of force contact too far out front.

What actually is "HELD" is the back wrist position, dorsiflexed ("unbroken") and radially deviated ("cocked"). Tryingmto hold the lead wrist just messes up timing and quickness. So you need to lear how the hands/arms/release works for quickness and deep contact, somewhat seperately for each arm/hand.

Look at Bonds back wrist just before contact in the "slotting" picture at the link above.

and look at all the pictures to see what "palmup extension" of the back arm looks like.

At contact, the top hand is sill palm up, but the lead hand has often started to "roll". Ideally the bat is just lining up with the lead forearm.
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
Quote from Tom:
If you have to say one thing is dominant, I would agree with Williams that it is ultimately a top hand power "push" swing

My dd has been taking lots of swings off the tee with a Swift-Stik this week trying to correct some slight bat drag. After a few hundred swings with the Swift-Stik she switched to her real bat, which in comparison to the Swift-Stik felt heavy.

The first several swings with her real bat were pretty ugly because the bat head dropped when she launched her swing due to limp wrist (body not used to swinging a heavier object). I told her what was happening and she said "My top wrist is twisting because I'm not used to the weight of the bat, I need to concentrate on keeping my top wrist firm".

I have never talked to her about THT or anything to do with the wrist, yet she can "feel" what her wrist are doing and intuitively knows the top hand is dominant.

Just one more indication to me that Ted knew what he was talking about.

My wife is a physical therepist and at the request of my dd brought home two balls for her to squeeze to strengthen her wrist and forearms.

I have a video clip taken from behind of her swinging. It shows how the wrist uncock leading into contact. If I knew how to post it I would.
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,591
0
Atlanta, Georgia
As always, compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.
To the OP, this is good advice. Just be sure to include slow motion video of the very best, Ted Williams. Many of the players we see today are deflating from their days using steriods. Epstein has always maintained that bigger, thicker players do not have to create as much seperation between their lower and upper bodies (Torque) as thinner players like Williams and Griffey.

It wouldn't surprise me if many of today's modern day players will need to brush up on their technique to compensate for their deflated bodies.

Despite the steriods I would say Bonds exhibits the core movements of the rotational swing expressed by Ted, as well as any modern day player.

As you are studying video clips, you may want to check out the clip of the Fleck kid at Epstein's site. Amazing swing for a 15 yo and very similar to Ted's.
 

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