Deltoid / Rear Hip Iso Drill Revisited

[cartersball]

Th idea of the horizontal pendulum is a good one.

However, the hands do not follow the same path in the barrel to the ball scenario as in the hands to the ball scenario. If you take the hands to the ball, and push them away from the back shoulder, then the horizontal pendulum won't happen as powerfully.

IOW, the key is what the hands are doing, not as much what the back hip is doing.

I agree that what Tewks does with his hands in his knob to the ball demo vs his barrel to the ball demo takes away from that horizontal pendulum. In fact, it all but eliminates it where it needs to be. Creating the horizontal pendulum in the manner Tewks describes in his barrel to the ball demo enables your rear hip to pick up the already traveling barrel and whip it through the zone. The rear hip is very very very important.

Did you notice the movement his bottom hand forearm was making in the barrel to the ball demo??

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Th idea of the horizontal pendulum is a good one.

However, the hands do not follow the same path in the barrel to the ball scenario as in the hands to the ball scenario. If you take the hands to the ball, and push them away from the back shoulder, then the horizontal pendulum won't happen as powerfully.

IOW, the key is what the hands are doing, not as much what the back hip is doing.

I strongly recommend that you take swings replicating what you saw in Tewks' video. I had my kid watch Tewks' video tonight before hitting. The sound of ball jumping off the barrel was electrifying.

Thank you Tewks!! You put this into terms that my kid quickly identified with.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

The back hip is a hunk of bone with no ability to move itself.

You're confusing cause and effect.

 

[Tewks]

The back hip is a hunk of bone with no ability to move itself.

You're confusing cause and effect.

Chris, you have a PM.

 

[Mike]

Ok. little slow here. The knob to the ball is an example of what not to do, right?

The back hip is a hunk of bone with no ability to move itself..... Chris O'Leary

I tell some kids to the power comes from the rear hip, some get it some don't. What does move the hip, maybe a little more explanation would help.

Example: I always have told kids to bend at the waist until someone on here said we actually bend at where our hip bones are. I know explain that to kids and that hump in there back goes away.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[cartersball]

The back hip is a hunk of bone with no ability to move itself.

You're confusing cause and effect.

This statement is misleading. The hip is not just a "hunk of bone". The hip joint, scientifically referred to as the acetabulofemoral joint, is the joint between the femur and acetabulum of the pelvis and its primary function is to support the weight of the body in both static (e.g. standing) and dynamic (e.g. walking or running) postures. The hip joint is a synovial joint formed by the articulation of the rounded head of the femur and the cup-like acetabulum of the pelvis. It forms the primary connection between the bones of the lower limb and the axial skeleton of the trunk and pelvis. The hip muscles act on three mutually perpendicular main axes, all of which pass through the center of the femoral head, resulting in three degrees of freedom and three pair of principal directions: Flexion and extension around a transverse axis (left-right); lateral rotation and medial rotation around a longitudinal axis (along the thigh); and abduction and adduction around a sagittal axis (forward-backward); and a combination of these movements (i.e. circumduction, a compound movement in which the leg describes the surface of an irregular cone).
The movements of the hip joint are as follows:
* Lateral or external rotation (30° with the hip extended, 50° with the hip flexed): gluteus maximus; quadratus femoris; obturator internus; dorsal fibers of gluteus medius and minimus; iliopsoas (including psoas major from the vertebral column); obturator externus; adductor magnus, longus, brevis, and minimus; piriformis; and sartorius.
* Medial or internal rotation (40°): anterior fibers of gluteus medius and minimus; tensor fascia latae; the part of adductor magnus inserted into the adductor tubercle; and, with the leg abducted also the pectineus.
* Extension or retroversion (20°): gluteus maximus (if put out of action, active standing from a sitting position is not possible, but standing and walking on a flat surface is); dorsal fibers of gluteus medius and minimus; adductor magnus; and piriformis. Additionally, the following thigh muscles extend the hip: semimembranosus, semitendinosus, and long head of biceps femoris.
* Flexion or anteversion (140°): iliopsoas (with psoas major from vertebral column); tensor fascia latae, pectineus, adductor longus, adductor brevis, and gracilis. Thigh muscles acting as hip flexors: rectus femoris and sartorius.
* Abduction (50° with hip extended, 80° with hip flexed): gluteus medius; tensor fascia latae; gluteus maximus with its attachment at the fascia lata; gluteus minimus; piriformis; and obturator internus.
* Adduction (30° with hip extended, 20° with hip flexed): adductor magnus with adductor minimus; adductor longus, adductor brevis, gluteus maximus with its attachment at the gluteal tuberosity; gracilis (extends to the tibia); pectineus, quadratus femoris; and obturator externus. Of the thigh muscles, semitendinosus is especially involved in hip adduction.

 

[Mike]

Being cute or not he has a point, my question is what does move the hip? where should the kid feel it? is it a rotation or thrust? the hips IMO are a very important part of the swing and trying to get kids to get more power out of them can be challenging, there might be a different way of explaining hip thrust, as in telling kids we bend at the hip joint not the waist. I am not into the personal battles.

Chris I don't know if you mean for these little one liners to be funny, or if you are serious, but in any case this statement is misleading. The hip is not just a "hunk of bone". The hip joint, scientifically referred to as the acetabulofemoral joint, is the joint between the femur and acetabulum of the pelvis and its primary function is to support the weight of the body in both static (e.g. standing) and dynamic (e.g. walking or running) postures. The hip joint is a synovial joint formed by the articulation of the rounded head of the femur and the cup-like acetabulum of the pelvis. It forms the primary connection between the bones of the lower limb and the axial skeleton of the trunk and pelvis. The hip muscles act on three mutually perpendicular main axes, all of which pass through the center of the femoral head, resulting in three degrees of freedom and three pair of principal directions: Flexion and extension around a transverse axis (left-right); lateral rotation and medial rotation around a longitudinal axis (along the thigh); and abduction and adduction around a sagittal axis (forward-backward); and a combination of these movements (i.e. circumduction, a compound movement in which the leg describes the surface of an irregular cone).
The movements of the hip joint are as follows:
* Lateral or external rotation (30° with the hip extended, 50° with the hip flexed): gluteus maximus; quadratus femoris; obturator internus; dorsal fibers of gluteus medius and minimus; iliopsoas (including psoas major from the vertebral column); obturator externus; adductor magnus, longus, brevis, and minimus; piriformis; and sartorius.
* Medial or internal rotation (40°): anterior fibers of gluteus medius and minimus; tensor fascia latae; the part of adductor magnus inserted into the adductor tubercle; and, with the leg abducted also the pectineus.
* Extension or retroversion (20°): gluteus maximus (if put out of action, active standing from a sitting position is not possible, but standing and walking on a flat surface is); dorsal fibers of gluteus medius and minimus; adductor magnus; and piriformis. Additionally, the following thigh muscles extend the hip: semimembranosus, semitendinosus, and long head of biceps femoris.
* Flexion or anteversion (140°): iliopsoas (with psoas major from vertebral column); tensor fascia latae, pectineus, adductor longus, adductor brevis, and gracilis. Thigh muscles acting as hip flexors: rectus femoris and sartorius.
* Abduction (50° with hip extended, 80° with hip flexed): gluteus medius; tensor fascia latae; gluteus maximus with its attachment at the fascia lata; gluteus minimus; piriformis; and obturator internus.
* Adduction (30° with hip extended, 20° with hip flexed): adductor magnus with adductor minimus; adductor longus, adductor brevis, gluteus maximus with its attachment at the gluteal tuberosity; gracilis (extends to the tibia); pectineus, quadratus femoris; and obturator externus. Of the thigh muscles, semitendinosus is especially involved in hip adduction.

Impressive yes, helpful no.

Mike

 

[Chris O'Leary]

He’s basically suggesting that bones don’t move themselves and require supporting muscle contractions.

I would think that's a rather important thing to keep in mind.

There are many different ways to get the back hip to move (e.g. extension of the back knee), but not all of them are part of the high-level pattern.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Keep in mind that this is the same guy who uses the policy of instructing by showing videos and saying “see this, do this”.

Last I checked, Andres was hitting .278 but slugging north of .500. He had 5 hits, 4 of which went for extra bases.

P.S. I just checked the stats and Andres is starting to feel it. He homered and tripled on Saturday. Now he's hitting .318, is slugging .773, and is running at an OPS of 1.121.

The second sentence of this paragraph made me smile...

Torres isn't really looked at as being a candidate to start in right field, but he's nearly a lock to have a spot on the Giants as a part-time player. We still don't know how he suddenly came up with a power stroke last year, but he's 7-for-22 with six extra-base hits this spring.

Maybe you should try it before you knock it.

 

[tom.guerry]

I think we should just discuss the info here and not get personal.

Under the hood wise, people have looked at video and learned to "see" the summation of the kinetic link for some time now.

The "live and independent hands" idea is about trying to get a good sequence with efficient "summation" which is related to the slaught "connection" landmark.

the trouble with "knob to ball" the way tewks shows it (and used to teach as have untold instructors for many years) is that it assumes the WRONG under the hood action.

When you study the kinetic link, there is universally on motionanalysis (and often easily visible on surface video appearance) a sequenced acceleration of the hands associated with active arm extension as with "knob to ball".

==================

this is confirmed by seeing expected/efficient "speed gains" (summation) from link to link in motionanalysis as summarized here:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

According to Phil Cheetham, our founder and one of the country's leading biomechanical engineers, our findings show a direct relationship to the controlled increase in speed efficiently through each segment, ultimately impacting bat speed.

If the speed gain from the hips to the upper torso is in the correct range (not too high or low), there is an expectation of speed gain from the uppertoso to the arms and the arms to the bat.

For example if I get a speed gain of 200 degrees per second (dps) from my hips to my upper toso, I would expect to get a similar gain, 200 dps from my upper torso to my arms. I would then expect a large gain from my arms to my bat (800 dps or more). But if I release a large amount of energy during either or those first two segments, that energy cannot be transferred to my bat.

Example: I gain 300 dps from hips to uppertorso, and gain 300 dps from my uppertorso to arms, I may only gain 450 dps from my arms to my bat, resulting in a lower bat speed. That loss is only 150 dps. But 150 dps is approximately 10% of the athlete's pre-contact bat speed.


AND

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

During this first phase of the swing the forward swing there is an expected angular speed gain (progressive speed gain) of approximately 200 degrees per second from the hips to the upper torso, as the hips rotate and peak to a speed of 550 d/sec, and upper torso rotates and peaks milliseconds later at a speed of 750 d/sec. There is an additional speed gain of approximately 250 d/sec from the upper torso to the arms (which reach a speed of 1000 d/sec milliseconds after the upper torso). This is followed by a significantly higher gain of 1000 d/sec from the arms to the bat as the bat releases at a speed of over 2000 degrees per second. Good athlete = 550>750>1000=2000 degrees per second (rotational bat speed)

This is an example of a poor athletic sequence (but can still be successful if the choose the right pitches).... If an athlete has gains that are higher in the early phases, the arms to bat gain is signicifantly lower (Example: 300, 300, 500 (typically looks like hips=600, Upper torso= 900, Arms=1200, Bat=1700) this would indicate a power leak or lack of appropriate pacing through the swing. (Like a 400 meter runner who runs the first 100 meters in 9.9 seconds and finishes in 50 seconds) the pace or rythm/timing is off and causes a loss of energy at the finish.

===========

The actual "under the hood" action is the turning of the bat handle/getting hands flat that when synched well with the lower body leg and hip thrust action produces efficient summation/release sequence that includes some arm/elbow extension, but WITHOUT the type of active extension of the arms which the knob to ball type drill promotes.

the pendulum action of the rear forearm //turning the corner is the same type supination that is part of "swivel" as the hands start flattening earlier (this under the hood action is underway/felt earlier).


Another faulty assumption is that active turning of the shoulders or lead arm/shoulder pull are necessary. Instead, the action comes from hips and hands powering/controlling trajectory and conscious shoulder turn/lead arm pull action will ruin the pattern.