coachlisle: stop telling hitters to hit the outside pitch deep

[CoachLisle]

I should have done a better job of communicating my point about hitting the outside pitch. I was frustrated with one of my hitters getting that cue today that didn't need it and I'm seeing that ALOT.

My original post was meant to say that you can also drive balls "out front" and I teach my hitters that "feel" although I have no problem making contact at their front HEEL instead of in front of front foot and that I really dislike the cue "let it travel" "see it deep" for the following reasons:

1) It's really a non teach unless your hitters are hitting balls into the pull side dugouts. If they have good hand path, its NEVER even a conversation.
2) Proper hand path you can still drive a ball out front in the opposite field gap. Bad hand path "more out/around" = rolling over.
3) If you have bad hand path, the cue of "let it travel" and "see it deep" is used by coaches mostly in front toss and tee where you can manipulate it but when the ball is live or moving much faster they try and "let it travel/get deep" and now everything is bad contact. Hitters still have the same load/stride timing when a change up comes vs. fastball.
4) When I put my hitters on a field with a tee and have them make contact with the tee at their front foot on the outside corner, they have higher exit speeds, further distance and closer to the gaps than if I put the ball deeper in their stance.

Having said ALL that, I think the video & Harold doesn't do a good job of explaining it and should have done my own video instead. I didn't think that the post would be seen by 160k and counting at this time (makes no sense).

All that to say, I should have done a better job with the post and explanation. I guess if I had posted: My hitters have "more" success feeling they make contact out front on the outside and I hate the cue of let it travel to fix hand path issues, there wouldn't be so much controversy. But I'm glad it was able to spark a good discussion.

As for the guy who said he hated my drill of "Put Out The Fire", I would love to know why. For some younger hitters (and even old) its a great way to simulate weight transfer just like the med ball toss drill that MANY big leaguers do. Not everyone has a med ball at their field or facility and I think its a creative backup plan for that. If it annoys your Facebook feed so much, just "unlike" my page. That'll solve the problem.

 

[FP26]

My thought is this: we simply hit it "deeper" because the radius of the swing is greater. The "circle" is larger therefore it takes a marginally longer time for the barrel to get to the out side of part of the plate. As the "vee's" angle increases it seems to me the bat path radius would also increase...

Of course the swing is not a circle...the swing moves in 3 dimensions not just 2 like an ellipse...but I think you understand what I am trying to infer...

I have no hard data to go by but the 3 way Posey clip would seem to back this up as well as this 4 clip comparison of Miggy...

I see the biggest difference in bat path "radius" in the 2 bottom clips

So is it possible that the distance\time relevance is the reason why we hit outside pitches deeper and inside pitches more out front?

I'd love to hear your thoughts...CP

It is an interesting discussion. I seem to remember a similar discussion at BBD not too long ago. One of the posters used the vision of an ice skater as a comparison. The tighter the arms to the body, the faster the spin. When reading your post, that vision came to my mind. Just curious what that would do in regards to bat speed. Is bat speed faster on a inside pitch than an outside pitch? I wonder if that is something that could be tested with a Zepp?

 

[CoogansBluff]

I really dislike the cue "let it travel" "see it deep" for the following reasons:

1) It's really a non teach unless your hitters are hitting balls into the pull side dugouts. If they have good hand path, its NEVER even a conversation.
2) Proper hand path you can still drive a ball out front in the opposite field gap. Bad hand path "more out/around" = rolling over.

Just a dad, not a hitting coach. Here is how I see it, and hope for corrections.

I use the cue ''let it travel'' with my daughter because I believe it encourages a better hand path in practice, vs. front toss. Most TB players that I see do not turn the barrel to the ball very well. They tend to push or reach out with their hands. That hand path almost assures that they will hit the ball out front, or else they'll miss it entirely.

I'm trying to encourage a type of swing that allows my DD to take the ball deeper. That doesn't mean that she should take it as deep as possible as the ideal contact point. So I don't disagree with the premise of the original post. I'm just defending that cue, 'let it travel.'

I also use a drill where my DD hits the ball off a tee that has 'traveled' beyond the front foot on a pitch down the middle. That's not ideal contact point, and it doesn't allow for the highest exit speeds, but is practice getting on plane with the pitch ASAP.

The farthest balls that my DD can hit off a tee are with balls way out front, requiring her to extend her arms into almost power V. But I don't think that swing is the best for hitting live pitching. I see that 'arms extended' swing a lot, and it works on front toss, but when I see it, I might say 'let it travel'. Maybe the cut should be 'get behind the ball' instead, which is asking the hitter to have a better hand path.

 

[KCPRK]

IMHO some people are great hitter and poor instructors. Some people are great instructor and poor hitters. Some people are great hitters and great instructors. And we have a couple who are poor hitters and poor instructors lol. So not every example or explanation is a fit for every hitter or instructor.

In regards to Bustos I feel her line is very exaggerated compared to her execution based on the great pics/gifs/videos you guys provided. I love the visuals you all are able to create-a skill I wish I had. Maybe Bustos line should be a "Z" vs a "\" ? Would that be reasonable assumption?

I was shown in college that the POC for an outside pitch was a "little deeper" due to the bodies ability to generate more power using a physical demonstration of POC and which POC felt like you had more leverage and power with a little kinesiology added in. It made sense to me at that time since I was able to see and feel the difference. It may have not been perfect but I feel it was close and anything you can get a student to feel and self correct is beneficial. No 2 hitters have to be alike. Also my size allowed myself to be less perfect in technique so if it generated more power and was successful for myself it may not have been for someone else IMHO. I was 6'3" and 240lbs.

Coach Lisle-I really appreciate you explaining your fb post. I follow you (and many other) instructors and pick up tidbits where applicable IMHO. Taking your fb post at face value was the first time Ive disagreed and didn't quite understand because I felt it contradicted your other teachings. Further explanation and clarification was needed and proves the point that taking everything a face value may be misinterpreted. I try to find what is valued to myself in everything and cut out the rest without overanalyzing it.

Keep posting here when you find value and time please.

 

[KCPRK]

I believe weve had this discussion before and it may be relevant-topical argument so to speak.

Do we feel power/leverage after POC is beneficial in any way? Once we make contact does anything we do after POC greatly impact power, distance, and direction of the ball?

If it does not then does it nullify the let it get deep argument? Maximize power and leverage to POC and where you make contact at/POC is a lesser factor?

If it does then would letting it get deeper allow the body to better utilize its levers to explode through the ball after POC?

There I go overanalyzing it lol. this answer would help myself know where to spend more time/focus thus generating better results knowing a less than perfect swing will always be achieved in my world and Im ok with that.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Just a dad, not a hitting coach. Here is how I see it, and hope for corrections.

I use the cue ''let it travel'' with my daughter because I believe it encourages a better hand path in practice, vs. front toss. Most TB players that I see do not turn the barrel to the ball very well. They tend to push or reach out with their hands. That hand path almost assures that they will hit the ball out front, or else they'll miss it entirely.

I'm trying to encourage a type of swing that allows my DD to take the ball deeper. That doesn't mean that she should take it as deep as possible as the ideal contact point. So I don't disagree with the premise of the original post. I'm just defending that cue, 'let it travel.'

I also use a drill where my DD hits the ball off a tee that has 'traveled' beyond the front foot on a pitch down the middle. That's not ideal contact point, and it doesn't allow for the highest exit speeds, but is practice getting on plane with the pitch ASAP.

The farthest balls that my DD can hit off a tee are with balls way out front, requiring her to extend her arms into almost power V. But I don't think that swing is the best for hitting live pitching. I see that 'arms extended' swing a lot, and it works on front toss, but when I see it, I might say 'let it travel'. Maybe the cut should be 'get behind the ball' instead, which is asking the hitter to have a better hand path.

 

[CoachLisle]

This video explanation is great/easy. BUT so many hitting coaches are really wanting to explain it in a way that it gets way too deep

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I believe weve had this discussion before and it may be relevant-topical argument so to speak.

Do we feel power/leverage after POC is beneficial in any way? Once we make contact does anything we do after POC greatly impact power, distance, and direction of the ball?

If it does not then does it nullify the let it get deep argument? Maximize power and leverage to POC and where you make contact at/POC is a lesser factor?

If it does then would letting it get deeper allow the body to better utilize its levers to explode through the ball after POC?

There I go overanalyzing it lol. this answer would help myself know where to spend more time/focus thus generating better results knowing a less than perfect swing will always be achieved in my world and Im ok with that.

Bold above .... the answer is 'yes', but with an explanation.

In such an athletic event the mentality is that your body is always preparing for what it is to do next. Sure, the duration of impact is quite brief ... in softball, perhaps on the order of 1/1000 of a second ... yet, despite the short time duration, the quality of impact is important. What you do downstream from contact can improve impact. Don't believe me ... grab a Zepp and perform swings where you change post impact conditions ... for example, a forced top hand palm-up orientation all the way to full extension, versus a roll to full extension .... or freezing out extension versus achieving full extension ... etc.

 

[stiksdad]

Why would it be wrong to teach hitters to hit balls at differernt locations, I am not sure I follow you on this.

 

[KCPRK]

Bold above .... the answer is 'yes', but with an explanation.

In such an athletic event the mentality is that your body is always preparing for what it is to do next. Sure, the duration of impact is quite brief ... in softball, perhaps on the order of 1/1000 of a second ... yet, despite the short time duration, the quality of impact is important. What you do downstream from contact can improve impact. Don't believe me ... grab a Zepp and perform swings where you change post impact conditions ... for example, a forced top hand palm-up orientation all the way to full extension, versus a roll to full extension .... or freezing out extension versus achieving full extension ... etc.

Very good explanation and logic. Thank you FFS. The result of a change in post impact conditions would just be a mishit correct?