BU positioning

[1fingeredknuckler]

You do note I said correct "C" position.......

I was once the "question everything" umpire.....and that will get you ahead when you are right. But when you are questioning the wrong stuff.....you're kinda screwed.

Questioning stuff is good.....arguing for the sake of it, is bad.

When I was young and inexperienced........C could sometimes be a challenge.....as I gained experience.....those plays became routine.

Quit dumping on new umpires and the problem goes away. They actually hang around long enough to get really good......and sometimes get to be great.

Joel

Calling the game on paper is like playing the game on paper, the further you are from a play the more your going to miss it, i still don;t agree that behind the ss is the best, and i never will, you can't see a foot off the base from that position, is that part of the game just ignored?

 

[Comp]

And if you move the BU over behind 2nd how will they see a pulled foot at 3rd, a swipe tag, a pick off attempt etc? Everyone has agreed there are holes in the system, but moving the BU to a different part of the field you are only trading one set of problems for another.

 

[GI Tom]

Calling the game on paper is like playing the game on paper, the further you are from a play the more your going to miss it, i still don;t agree that behind the ss is the best, and i never will, you can't see a foot off the base from that position, is that part of the game just ignored?

Let me start by saying 1fingeredknuckler, I agree with you. I would like to call a force at 1B from A rather than from C, when no one is on base. But when someone is on base, I would rather call that from C in a two man system.

As has been mentioned multiple times already in this thread, when you are required to officiate with just 2 on the field, everyone in attendance must accept the fact that there will be some level of compromising done as far as positioning by the umpires dependent upon circumstances. Period.

The mechanics are in place so the official has the highest chance of seeing ALL plays should they occur. Discussing other options is always good when it comes to officiating, but there are some things that just cannot be improved upon when having only 2 officials on the field.

A better solution to this is to have the TD's increase the tournament fees so that you can have 4 man official crews on the field at all times. That's what would be optimal. That's really not practical either, but hey, I guess it's a solution.

If you can look into your crystal softball bucket and tell me for certain, without doubt that the next play with a runner on 2 or 3 is going to 1B, then yes, I'll happily slide on over to A to make that call.

If you can't guarantee it, I'll choose C (even if the mechanic gave me a choice) to cover the potential force at 1B and the potential plays at 2B or 3B as that is the best spot to see all potential outcomes and with the highest chances of COLLECTIVELY getting all of them right. I'd rather be responsible for a force call at 1B from C than a snap tag or pickoff call at 3B from B or A. You would be hard pressed to find an official to argue that last sentence. If you do, they will be in the extreme minority.

There are dozens of other scenerios that are far less effective than being in C for a force out at 1B in a 2 man. Why does this one always garner alot of attention?

And to answer your flippant question about that part of the game being ignored, no, it is not. Assuming the base umpire misses a pulled foot at 1B, the plate umpire has pulled foot responsibilities at 1B in the event of an appeal. That's regardless of wherever the base umpire is positioned.

I've personally rolled girls safe at 1B for a pulled foot I saw from C. Conversely, I've had my fair share of calls that I missed a pulled foot at 1B while in A that required an appeal to correct.

So perhaps while in A I should lay down on the ground at eye level with 1B and watch for a pulled foot and I can use my ears to hear the order of the snap of the glove and the thud of the base from the runners foot to decide if she is safe or out. That will likely fix the missed pulled foot issue that still exists while an official is in A. There's no other runners on, so if she elects to advance to 2nd or 3rd base, I should have enough time to get up and follow her there.

MTR, can you bring that one up at the next meeting. Please give someone else full credit for it though. I don't like drawing attention to myself.

 

[BretMan]

And to answer your flippant question about that part of the game being ignored, no, it is not. Assuming the base umpire misses a pulled foot at 1B, the plate umpire has pulled foot responsibilities at 1B in the event of an appeal. That's regardless of wherever the base umpire is positioned.

Yeah, I already explained all that in the other thread he started about this same subject. Which leads me to believe that he either isn't bothering to read the replies before posting or, if he is, then his intent is more to just stir things up rather than learn anything.

 

[Umpire]

Conversely, I've had my fair share of calls that I missed a pulled foot at 1B while in A that required an appeal to correct.

Use 1 step fair and you can see a pulled foot. Why set up in a spot where you can't see a pulled foot when you start in the A position? If you can't see a pulled foot, you sure has hell can't see a swipe tag on the batter-runner either. I'd questions where you are setting up for these calls.

 

[GI Tom]

Use 1 step fair and you can see a pulled foot. Why set up in a spot where you can't see a pulled foot when you start in the A position? If you can't see a pulled foot, you sure has hell can't see a swipe tag on the batter-runner either. I'd questions where you are setting up for these calls.

I question whether you've ever officiated a game. It has dawned on me you are clearly a troll, I won't feed you any longer.

 

[MTR]

Yeah, I already explained all that in the other thread he started about this same subject. Which leads me to believe that he either isn't bothering to read the replies before posting or, if he is, then his intent is more to just stir things up rather than learn anything.

Or just doesn't want to listen to hear an opposing view regardless of the experience & training & common sense that has been demonstrated

 

[Umpire]

Or just doesn't want to listen to hear an opposing view regardless of the experience & training & common sense that has been demonstrated

Nope. I actually worked both mechanics for a number of years. If you look at the number of blown calls at 1st base even when the umpire starts on the line, you will see that the vast majority are umpires who are a good 10-15 feet off of the line.

Going so far off the line means you lose sight of the pulled foot or swipe tag. You may say, "well if you see that is going to happen, just adjust." The problem with that response is that it's normally too late to adjust and certainly too late to adjust and stop again to watch the play; so, you'll be making a call while in motion, which you shouldn't do.

Moving that far off of the line also means that the defender on 1st base will actually block your view of the batter-runner's foot right before it comes down onto the base. Certainly, you can't think it is a good idea to position yourself in such a way that you lose sight of the runner's foot when it is just inches from coming down on the base.

So then why go out to whatever degree or angle that you have been taught so many times over the years? What advantage does it give you? The only argument is that you can see the ball enter the glove. Well, have you ever had difficulty seeing the ball in the glove on a force play? It is easy to see and easy to hear. You can see it from almost anywhere on the field. What you can't see everywhere on the field is a pulled foot or swipe tag.

Going one (two if you prefer) step fair means that you can see the entire base, you never lose sight of the batter-runner, you can see a pulled foot and you can see a swipe tag.

Those who knock it either have never tried it or never gave it a fair shot. Regardless of their position within ASA or NCAA, I have never met one umpire who has tried 1 or 2 steps fair and thought that it wasn't much better than anything else they have ever been taught.

 

[MTR]

Nope. I actually worked both mechanics for a number of years. If you look at the number of blown calls at 1st base even when the umpire starts on the line, you will see that the vast majority are umpires who are a good 10-15 feet off of the line.

Which is not a bad position for some plays, but certainly not all. There is no X on the ground where the umpire should stand for every play.

Going so far off the line means you lose sight of the pulled foot or swipe tag. You may say, "well if you see that is going to happen, just adjust." The problem with that response is that it's normally too late to adjust and certainly too late to adjust and stop again to watch the play; so, you'll be making a call while in motion, which you shouldn't do.

This is not a given. The defender's position and actions can cause an umpire to lose that dimension just as easy as an umpire moving to a position which may not be the best for that play.

Moving that far off of the line also means that the defender on 1st base will actually block your view of the batter-runner's foot right before it comes down onto the base. Certainly, you can't think it is a good idea to position yourself in such a way that you lose sight of the runner's foot when it is just inches from coming down on the base.

Every play is different and the umpire must respond and adjust to what is in front of him/her. However, this is one of the reasons ASA mechanics max out at 45 degrees.

So then why go out to whatever degree or angle that you have been taught so many times over the years? What advantage does it give you? The only argument is that you can see the ball enter the glove. Well, have you ever had difficulty seeing the ball in the glove on a force play?

Every umpire has because the throw does not always travel the umpire's preferred path and the receiver doesn't always make a clean catch. You are making claims on something that isn't true. You DON'T go to a particular angle or spot and I have never seen it taught in that manner. See above.

It is easy to see and easy to hear. You can see it from almost anywhere on the field. What you can't see everywhere on the field is a pulled foot or swipe tag.

BTW, the "swipe tag" argument is old and inaccurate, whether from you or ASA supervisor or anyone else. You do NOT get an advantage on a swipe tag from an angle closer to the line. Many swipe tags @ 1B cannot be seen because they are on the runner's back which is away from BU. You will see the glove and runner possibly occupying the same space at some time, but the umpire cannot see if contact was actually made for the tag.

Going one (two if you prefer) step fair means that you can see the entire base, you never lose sight of the batter-runner, you can see a pulled foot and you can see a swipe tag.

Again, opinion.

Those who knock it either have never tried it or never gave it a fair shot. Regardless of their position within ASA or NCAA, I have never met one umpire who has tried 1 or 2 steps fair and thought that it wasn't much better than anything else they have ever been taught.

No one said it isn't good and ASA doesn't state you cannot use this as long as it is appropriate for the play. Why is it you constantly refuse to accept that ASA does NOT teach spot officiating?

 

[Umpire]

MTR: It goes without saying that all plays are different. What I am saying is that the default position should be 1 or 2 steps fair for the reasons given. It is virtually impossible to lose sight of the BR's foot as it comes down on the base from 1 or 2 steps fair. Now compare that to going closer to 45 degrees. Going even at a maximum of 45 degrees puts the defender's entire body in your line of vision of the BR's foot as it his the ground. I know this for a fact. We run countless drills demonstrating it and umpire from all walks of life, new and veteran, all agree that they lose sight of the BR's foot right when it is coming down if they go more than 2 steps fair.

Experiment with this. Position an umpire one or two steps fair. Then position another umpire 4 steps fair (closer to 30 or 45 degrees). Have a 1st baseman stretch normally as if to take a throw from short stop. Start the BR about 15 feet from 1st base and slowly jog down the line. Ask each umpire to say "stop" when they lose sight of the BR's foot. I guarantee you that the umpire 4 steps off the line will say "stop" and the umpire 1 or 2 steps fair won't. Since the BR's foot is one of the most important elements of the play, wouldn't you prefer that the umpire see the foot hit the base?

I wasn't a believer either until I gave it a few tries. I also realized that it appears to slow the play down. It does so because rather than losing sight of the BR's foot at the last minute and have the play sort of explode in front of you as she reappears and overruns the base, using 1 step fair allows you to have continuous sight of the BR.

I agree that you can have a tag in the back. Those are tough calls to get right and I don't think being 30-45 degrees helps you out much with them. At least if you were 1 or 2 steps fair, you can at get the swipe tags on the side of the BR's body correct.

There are exceptions to 1 step fair, such as on throws from the imaginary box and throws from the right fielder. These positions differ because of the position of the defender at 1st base and the need to get out of a direct line of the throw.