BU positioning

[Umpire]

MTR: It goes without saying that all plays are different. What I am saying is that the default position should be 1 or 2 steps fair for the reasons given. It is virtually impossible to lose sight of the BR's foot as it comes down on the base from 1 or 2 steps fair. Now compare that to going closer to 45 degrees. Going even at a maximum of 45 degrees puts the defender's entire body in your line of vision of the BR's foot as it his the ground. I know this for a fact. We run countless drills demonstrating it and umpire from all walks of life, new and veteran, all agree that they lose sight of the BR's foot right when it is coming down if they go more than 2 steps fair.

Experiment with this. Position an umpire one or two steps fair. Then position another umpire 4 steps fair (closer to 30 or 45 degrees). Have a 1st baseman stretch normally as if to take a throw from short stop. Start the BR about 15 feet from 1st base and slowly jog down the line. Ask each umpire to say "stop" when they lose sight of the BR's foot. I guarantee you that the umpire 4 steps off the line will say "stop" and the umpire 1 or 2 steps fair won't. Since the BR's foot is one of the most important elements of the play, wouldn't you prefer that the umpire see the foot hit the base?

I wasn't a believer either until I gave it a few tries. I also realized that it appears to slow the play down. It does so because rather than losing sight of the BR's foot at the last minute and have the play sort of explode in front of you as she reappears and overruns the base, using 1 step fair allows you to have continuous sight of the BR.

I agree that you can have a tag in the back. Those are tough calls to get right and I don't think being 30-45 degrees helps you out much with them. At least if you were 1 or 2 steps fair, you can at get the swipe tags on the side of the BR's body correct.

There are exceptions to 1 step fair, such as on throws from the imaginary box and throws from the right fielder. These positions differ because of the position of the defender at 1st base and the need to get out of a direct line of the throw.

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

Runners on 1st ,2nd,BU is behind ss, any throw to 1st by who ever, 1st bsmn, does spread eagle to get the throw , is foot on the side of the base, Bu calls out, everybody on defense is lived, does HU over ride asking for help, or is it i called it the way i saw it?

It's obvious 1st bsmn is not on top of the bag.

 

[GI Tom]

Runners on 1st ,2nd,BU is behind ss, any throw to 1st by who ever, 1st bsmn, does spread eagle to get the throw , is foot on the side of the base, Bu calls out, everybody on defense is lived, does HU over ride asking for help, or is it i called it the way i saw it?

It's obvious 1st bsmn is not on top of the bag.

1fingeredknuckler, in that instance it sounds as if everyone on the defense saw the pulled foot. So, the proper method, since a pulled foot is something that you can appeal, is to go to the umpire who made the call, in this case the BU, tell him you are appealing that there was a pulled foot or the foot of F3 was off the bag. BU should go ask PU if he saw a pulled foot or a foot off the bag. PU will inform the BU of what he saw and then the BU may (or may not) change the call based on what he hears from PU.

If in your example you state it was obvious to everyone but the BU, which would indicate the PU saw it, therefore he should change his call. The PU always has pulled foot responsibilities at 1B, any runners on base only determine where he moves to cover it.

But remember, the BU is calling what he saw. In your example, he saw an out. If the PU wasn't doing what he was supposed to be doing, which is holding, or just slightly moving up the line to watch the BR go to first before advancing toward 3rd to cover a potential play on R2, and he too misses the pulled foot, the conversation will yield nothing and it would remain an out.

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

I'm not sure if i understand this, is the BU to call all 3 bases in ASA?

 

[BretMan]

Runners on 1st ,2nd,BU is behind ss, any throw to 1st by who ever, 1st bsmn, does spread eagle to get the throw , is foot on the side of the base, Bu calls out, everybody on defense is lived, does HU over ride asking for help, or is it i called it the way i saw it?

It's obvious 1st bsmn is not on top of the bag.

Why would the defense be livid if the umpire called an out?

For a detailed explanation on how this works, see the other thread you started on the main board (I'm not typing all that again!).

By the way, with runners on first and second and a ground ball on the infield, plate umpire should be up the line toward third, in foul territory, prepared to take a play at third base. In other words, he will be even further away from first base than the base umpire and have an even worse angle. So, he might not be able to give much help if asked.

And since when does a team getting livid mean that they are any more right than the guys on the field? I see teams get livid all the time on close plays, just because they didn't like the outcome, but the umpires had it 100% right. What if the team getting livid is in the third base dugout? They're even farther away from first than the the two umpires. Do we only accept livid appeals at first base from teams in the first base dugout? What if both teams are livid? Do we only listen to the team that is the lividest?

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

i guess the word was typed wrong, sorry it raised your BP

 

[BretMan]

i guess the word was typed wrong, sorry it raised your BP

Seriously...what makes you think my that blood pressure was raised?

 

[MTR]

If in your example you state it was obvious to everyone but the BU, which would indicate the PU saw it, therefore he should change his call. The PU always has pulled foot responsibilities at 1B, any runners on base only determine where he moves to cover it.

No, that isn't so. The PU has zero responsibility at 1B unless it is a one-umpire game (NCAA provides PU with some on some plays when U1 is out).

The PU is nothing, but another sets of eyes which may offer help when asked. The PU has other duties, sometimes involving other runners that carry a higher priority.

 

[GI Tom]

No, that isn't so. The PU has zero responsibility at 1B unless it is a one-umpire game (NCAA provides PU with some on some plays when U1 is out).

The PU is nothing, but another sets of eyes which may offer help when asked. The PU has other duties, sometimes involving other runners that carry a higher priority.

Well I disagree MTR. In all the clinics/schools I've been to, and even in the good ol' ASA umpire manual it clearly states the PU should trail the BR up the line to assist with a pulled foot, swipe tag or bobbled ball. I am using the term "responsibility" in that regard. Not that they are responsible for making any calls, just responsible for observing should an appeal be made or BU comes for help on his own.

EDIT: I say all this assuming you are reading the play and the first throw in the infield is to 1B, not elsewhere. I should have clarified that.

 

[GI Tom]

By the way, with runners on first and second and a ground ball on the infield, plate umpire should be up the line toward third, in foul territory, prepared to take a play at third base. In other words, he will be even further away from first base than the base umpire and have an even worse angle. So, he might not be able to give much help if asked.

BretMan, in the clinics I've attended around here, (Both National and State and some others) we've been instructed, even with a runner on 2B, to hold near the plate at the very least and observe what we could at 1B (for potential tags, pulled foot, bobbles, etc) then immediately move up the line to take any plays at 3B. This assumes the 1st throw in the infield is going to 1B.

Is this one of those mechanics that has varying opinions? Just inquiring how other officials have been instructed as this is what I've been taught, rightly or wrongly.