Bob Todd

[Mark H]

Rather than focus on degree of closure, perhaps the key is timing and purpose of closure. IOW, where it fits in the kinetic chain and why. I'd suggest that what the hip does after the arm passes isn't the place to focus except as it relates to fielding. Windmill

 

[Hillhouse]

Bob is a Hall of Fame pitcher who threw for the Long Beach NightHawks who consistently won world series after world series. Not only did I pitch against him but I also coached against him in college. He was an assistant coach for Dominguez Hills University team for about 3 years. Yes, he is old school and does believe as I that you should close your hip after release of the ball into a fielding position. Bob is a good man who understands the game very well. And as a pitcher there were not many who threw better than him in his day.

Coach Stan

Agreed. Bob Todd had a hall of fame career. Here is where I differ with him: I can absolutely positively guarantee you that he did not pitch the way CShilt is describing his video instructs. It baffles me when pitchers actually pitch one way, yet teach another and very few people call them out on it. Some people teach what they THINK they were doing but, come to find out that's simply not the case. Sue Enquist is a great example of this... she says point blank that her videos of 20 yrs ago are useless as new technology has shown what is ACTUALLY happening during the swing, not what they "thought" was happening.

The "slam the door" argument get brought up a lot. Typically, when people use this expression, they are saying the hip and hand/ball come through at the same time. This is taught on countless videos. This technique makes a riseball, with true backspin, impossible. It's not my rule, I didn't invent how to do it. I just know that nobody can get true backspin on a riseball this way. Personally, I believe this is why there is so much trouble, debate and confusion about the riseball: because the mechanics being used do not allow for it to happen properly. To even make backspin possible, the ball much clear the hips first. More often than not, girls get "bullet spin" on their rise and this is partly because of the "slam the door" they are taught from day one.

Anyway, every elite pitcher, male or female ends in a fielding position. So they do close. The question is, WHEN do they close. Slamming the door as it's typically taught actually FORCES the fielding position rather than letting the pitcher FALL into it after the pitch.

Bill

 

[bwalk63]

Bill thank you so much for the clarification on "slam the door" it amazes me that it is stil taught. I am a novice at this and have never pitched, but the amount of knowledge I have learned here and from watching what the "best" do, )Including yourself in the "best") is invaluable. My DD was taught early on the "slam the door" and thank goodness I started learning because my daughter would not ne nearly as good as she is becoming. Thanks again.

 

[calgofo]

I agree with Bill here. To me the action of the hips is for the most part a "no teach" and the slam the door philosophy is detrimental.

 

[Mark H]

Terms like "slam the door" can mean a lot of different things to as many people as hear the term. Is there one of these pitchers you guys like and or don't like in relation to the slam the door term? Windmill

 

[calgofo]

Indeed "slam the door" can mean deifferent things depending on the individuals invloved. In reference to the examples shown in the video link, IMO, it is as follows. The video of Jenny finch, to me, shows her hips to be open through the entire pitch and even after delivery. With Cat, her hips appear to be at about 45 degress at release. Also, as you know, I have wathced her many times in person as well as yourself. Note that in the video her knees are almost 180 degrees in line with one another. I also have stated in previous threads and basesed on conversation with Gary, know that their are reasons for her "relatively" narrow pelvic girdle. In the case of Ueno, I have also stated in previous threads, that her shoulders appear to be wider than her pelvic girdle, although I have never seen her pitch in person. I have also stated that I'm sure someone will post a picture showing Ueno's backside is as big as a bass drum, but in abscense of that, Ueno appears to be a rare female in that her shoulders are wider than her pelvic girdle. A most rare phenomenon in female pitchers. To me, she most exemplifies the "slam the door" philosophy but due to her anatomical make up, her example is not easily replicable with most female pitchers.

 

[Mark H]

I agree with your point about variable female anatomy though on Cat, she is not the skinny twig she used to be. She is a normally shaped female now imo last time I saw her-albeit a very tall female. I also agree Finch is the most open. I would urge you to consider the effect the turnover of the whipping loop/arm has in clearing the hip. Also, look for the lesser and incomplete hip close of Finch right about nine o clock. To me, this similarity in nature to the other two pitchers, though not in magnitude speaks to function over form and points to the role the hips play in the kinetic chain.