Back elbow initiates the swing?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ihowser, take a look at the following GIF.

Focus on the upper rear arm ... rear humerus.

As he performs the exercise he pulls the weight ... and when he does that there is a 'rotary' movement around the longitudinal axis of the humerus (upper rear arm) ... the upper arm is turning inward ... and this movement is termed "internal rotation".

It may help if you repeat the motion in this GIF and place your free hand (left hand) over your rear shoulder. This should help you feel the internal rotation of the humerus taking place within the rear shoulder socket.

External rotation is the opposite.

Note that in this GIF demonstration that there is no 'adduction' or 'abduction' of the rear humerus taking place. We are focusing on the rotational movement of the humerus here.

Add this "internal rotation" with "abduction", and you will be setup to smoothly flow into "external rotation" with "adduction" at swing initiation ... practice that smooth transition from 'internal rotation' to 'external rotation' until you feel the "live & independent" action. Master that action.

You may be surprised ... but most folks get this action correct when you have them perform a side-arm throw. Try it. Hand one of your hitters a ball and have them perform a sidearm throw.

The first thing you'll notice is that they'll get into a healthy posture ... think in terms of Howard's advice to "bend at the waist & soften at the knees" ... except you'll likely find that your student will simultaneously "bend at the waist" and "soften the knees". Stop your student there and emphasize how they got into a good athletic posture ... they do it naturally when throwing ... and you want them to do the same when they hit.

Have your student go through the process again ... and this time stop them as they raise their rear elbow back ... as in the photo below ... they will likely have both "abducted" and "internally rotated" to get into this position. Freeze your student in this position and have them take note. Repeat this and get them to feel the action taking place in their rear upper arm. They didn't simply 'abduct', they likely also 'internally rotated'.

Now continue the process ... and have your student freeze as their rear elbow begins to drop. Have them take note of the "external rotation" taking place along with the 'adduction'. The external rotation will be limited to the beginning of the downward motion of the elbow ... and will actually start just prior to the downward action of the rear elbow, which you will feel as you go through the motion.

Practice the transition from "internal" to "external" rotation. You'll likely do this smooth and easy when you perform a sidearm throw. Learn it ... and transfer this knowledge into your students hitting mechanics ... give them the "live & independent" action that Candrea speaks of.

 

[lhowser]

Ihowser, take a look at the following GIF...etc

FFS,

FANTASTIC! I appreciate that explanation and hope others do as well. Appreciate you taking the time. That will help me much as a read the language in previous posts and I am sure will benefit others as well. Was that jedi GIF suppossed to be animated? Wasn't in my browser.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ihowser, hopefully this version of the GIF will play in your browser.

To be honest, much of what I had to say above is a repeat of information that Tom has previously shared. He has more details.

When you look at the swing from a perspective of actions “under the hood”, and look beyond a simple surface perspective, then you gain additional insight. You’ll not only see that the elbow motion is much more involved than pure ‘abduction’ and ‘adduction’, but you’ll learn how to teach a student to properly synchronize their movements … … … you will end up adding hip/shoulder spatial separation to your student's swing without conscious effort on their part … and in so doing you will embed a significant source of force generation into their swing mechanics.

So Tom ... thank you for the continued input over the years.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS -

learning to break the hands as described by Hodge with Internal rotation and ABduction (break hands with elbows up and out and palms down) also is a good way to learn how to avoid loading by "excessive counterotation"

the Nyman "lift and pinch" (ABduct arm and horizontally aDduct/REtract scap) following this handbreak cue then encourages a good sequence.

the front and back arm actions are symmetric up to this point in throwing whereas in the swing there is more of a back and forth rhythmic alteration which is why it's nice to precede the swing motion by the Lau Sr absolute "rhythmic preswing activity".

Thank you Tom. Very good input. As an FYI, this is where Yeager’s cue of “taking the ball out of the glove” is meant to be applied … … … he uses that cue to achieve what you describe as the hand break with “internal rotation” and “abduction”. You reminded me of that cue with your use of the term “hand break”.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Thank you Tom. Very good input. As an FYI, this is where Yeager’s cue of “taking the ball out of the glove” is meant to be applied … … … he uses that cue to achieve what you describe as the hand break with “internal rotation” and “abduction”. You reminded me of that cue with your use of the term “hand break”.

This cue dramatically increases the risk of a developing a timing problem and thus elbow and shoulder problems.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

This cue dramatically increases the risk of a developing a timing problem and thus elbow and shoulder problems.

CO, I haven't used the cue in a while, but when I did use it I didn't see the issues you describe. All I can say is that my experience was different. It may have helped that Yeager communicated this information to me first-hand and I understood the action to be looking for ... but your point is valid, any cue can be misused, and hence it helps to understand the action you are trying to promote when working with a hitter. If the cue doesn't give the correct action with a kid, then you certainly don't want to force it on them.

 

[tom.guerry]

Rear arm ADduction is not a conscious/primary action, but a result/secondary to "slotting" primarily by EXternal rotation while keeping the elbow back/extended (which is what results in things being well lined up along the back seam of the uniform in the at RVP "connection" point), and in fact, the "feel" is the same as "keeping the back elbow UP" in the overhand throw.

another example of the difference between surface appearance and under the hood feel (see rear upper arm/humerus ADduction/rear elbow lowering on video while experiencing feel of keeping back elbow UP) based on the balance that results due to what muscles are active when.

another key from Hodge is to focus on synch of rear arm/lead leg synch of external rotation to coil with good timing.

 

[Wellphyt]

Rear arm ADduction is not a conscious/primary action, but a result/secondary to "slotting" primarily by EXternal rotation while keeping the elbow back/extended (which is what results in things being well lined up along the back seam of the uniform in the at RVP "connection" point), and in fact, the "feel" is the same as "keeping the back elbow UP" in the overhand throw.

another example of the difference between surface appearance and under the hood feel (see rear upper arm/humerus ADduction/rear elbow lowering on video while experiencing feel of keeping back elbow UP) based on the balance that results due to what muscles are active when.

another key from Hodge is to focus on synch of rear arm/lead leg synch of external rotation to coil with good timing.

Tom,

I just took some swings keeping in mind your comment that I highlighted in Red. The feel I get when I swing matches your observations. External rotation is the primary move I use to tuck my rear elbow. I have never really thought of it in those terms.

The reason I don't like the cue "the elbow starts the swing", is based on my observation that the rear elbow is responding to what the top hand is doing. Which I see as applying torque to the handle in order to start the barrel rearward as described by Mankin. The only way that I see for the top hand to produce the correct direction of torque (rearward), is for the rear elbow to externally rotate. The problem I had with my daughter when I used the "slot the rear elbow" cue is that the hands were just along for the ride. Which meant they were the last thing to engage. The result was a very draggy swing.

I know some on here find all this talk about ADduction, external and internal rotation etc. humorous, but it has helped me a lot.

 

[RichK]

I think FFS's description and pic of throwing takeaway is invaluable. As I think about it I do get the sense that it's easy for young girls to move their hands/elbows back or up/down without feeling and properly making under-the-hood external/internal rotation move. Is that in part what leads to "pushy" linear FP swings, along with a bad mental image (and poor coaching cues) of what they really need to do? I've learned a lot here, tks.

 

[tom.guerry]

well said:

The reason I don't like the cue "the elbow starts the swing", is based on my observation that the rear elbow is responding to what the top hand is doing

Strongly agree.

A MAJOR problem with ADduction/dropping the back elbow is that it inhibite/prevents external rotation. you need to keep the elbow (relatively not absolutley) up and back to primarily externally rotate it.

only by torquing the handle can you eliminate drag (and even then you still have to load and connect well to fire the bathead without drag or the body sensing lack of load and compensating by arms taking over).

external rotation to start untipping then supination at GO is the sequnce required.

another very difficult thing to understand without consciously studying what you experience in the HLBB pattern is that this torquing action needs to be/can be done without premature uncocking/unhinging of the lead wrist