Back elbow initiates the swing?

[Chris O'Leary]

I will say however Slaughts methods worked well enough for the Tigers and then when he left they scrapped everything and they have not hit well since in my opinion.

This is kinda OT, but is also kinda relevant.

I know for a fact that on the minor league pitching side at least, the Tiger pitching coaches are not allowed to use video. And I do I mean that they are not allowed to use video, not just that they don't. Someone higher up doesn't like the use of video. If coaches want to use video, they have to do it on the down low.

I wouldn't be surprised if that carried over to the hitting side as wel.

IMO, that would explain some things.

 

[Hitter]

This is kinda OT, but is also kinda relevant.

I know for a fact that on the minor league pitching side at least, the Tiger pitching coaches are not allowed to use video. And I do I mean that they are not allowed to use video, not just that they don't. Someone higher up doesn't like the use of video. If coaches want to use video, they have to do it on the down low.

I wouldn't be surprised if that carried over to the hitting side as wel.

IMO, that would explain some things.

Chris I know they used RVP and he went over video with the hitters however I will not speak about who or the details and when and he left they took it all out completely!

I still think if 47 % of the swing is considered to be focused around vision, then what is the breakdown of the remaining mechanics of 53 %?

If up to toe touch is considered style, what affect does the individuals style have on their mechanics that keeps the average MLB swing average between .259 and .270?

You would think with all the experts on these boards some one would be or have the answer to teach these pros how to do it and raise their averages significantly! LOL!

Thanks Howard

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

IMO, it is not the ‘rear elbow’ lowering that initiates the swing … so much as the rear elbow lowering is an outcome of an action that initiates the swing. In other words, the rear elbow lowering is a ‘result’ of the swing being initiated.

Yes, the rear elbow can be seen to lower, but IMO the ‘initial’ lowering of the rear elbow is due to external rotation of the rear humerus within the shoulder socket. That is, the elbow lowering is not just simple adduction, but includes external rotation of the rear upper arm (humerus) within the shoulder socket.

This external rotation is not an insignificant detail IMO … in that it is synchronized with other actions, including the front upper leg (femur).

When one speaks of “walking away from the hands”, one could instead instruct the synchronization of abduction (i.e., the movement away from the body’s midline) of the rear upper arm (humerus) with abduction of the upper front leg (femur). If one also internally rotates the rear upper arm (humerus) during this abduction, then often there will be a corresponding synchronized internal rotation of the upper front leg (femur). As the swing is ‘initiated’, the upper rear arm (humerus) will externally rotate, and often there will be a corresponding synchronized external rotation of the front upper leg (femur).

IMO when you get the action in the rear upper arm (humerus) correct, then often a student will have gone a long way towards building a clean synchronized swing.

 

[Hitter]

If I have made a decision to swing how does it happen?

Did the back elbow begin to lower or does it start even before then?

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a single act or product of thinking; idea or notion: to collect one's thoughts.

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2. the mass of nerve tissue in the cranium of vertebrate animals, an enlarged extension of the spinal cord: it is the main part of the nervous system, the center of thought, and the organ that perceives sensory impulses and regulates motor impulses: it is made up of gray matter (the outer cortex of nerve cells) and white matter (the inner mass of nerve fibers)

How neurons process this information?

“This essentially happens by means of the nerve impulse. A nerve impulse is the transmission of a coded signal from a given stimulus along the membrane of the neuron, starting in the point where it was applied. Nerve impulses can pass from one cell to another, thus creating a chain of information within a network of neurons.”
“Two types of phenomena are involved in processing the nerve impulse: electrical and chemical. Electrical events propagate a signal within a neuron, and chemical processes transmit the signal from one neuron to another or to a muscle cell. The chemical process of interaction between neurons and between neurons and effector cells occur at the end of the axon, in a structure called synapse. Touching very close against the dendrite of another cell (but without material continuity between both cells), the axon releases chemical substances called neurotransmitters, which attach themselves to chemical receptors in the membrane of the following neuron and promote excitatory or inhibitory changes in its membrane.”
“Therefore, neurotransmitters make possible the nerve impulses of one cell influence the nerve impulses of another, thus allowing brain cells to "talk to each other", so to speak. The human body has developed a large number of these chemical messengers in order to facilitate internal communication and signal transmission within the brain. When everything is working properly, the internal communications take place without we even being aware of them.”

“An understanding of synaptic transmission is the key to understanding the basic operation of the nervous system at a cellular level. The whole point of the nervous system is to control and coordinate body function and enable the body to respond to, and act on, the environment. Synaptic transmission is the key process in the integrative action of the nervous system.”

I guess it happened before I lowered my elbow after all and before external rotation of the rear humerus within the shoulder socket.

Great insight for my little ones, parents and coaches! LOL!

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Hitter, thank you for that insightful post. Hopefully someone found it helpful.

As Candrea has often stated … “if you can throw, then you can hit”.

IMO there is significant value to Mike’s quote. If you understand the upper rear arm action in a sidearm throw, then much of that knowledge can be transferred to the upper rear arm action in the swing.

As an example, when dealing with a student that tends to initiate their swing by dropping their hands, having them learn to internally rotate their upper rear arm during abduction of their rear upper arm, can often ‘assist’ them in eliminating the issue of dropping their hands prematurely at swing initiation.

IMO, the “live and independent hands” action that Candrea promotes can be easily mastered through an understanding of how the rear upper arm behaves during a routine sidearm throw.

In addition, some believe that there are important synchronization aspects that take place with the upper rear arm, that if mastered, can help build a well synchronized swing.

Food for thought anyway.

 

[tom.guerry]

FFS -

learning to break the hands as described by Hodge with Internal rotation and ABduction (break hands with elbows up and out and palms down) also is a good way to learn how to avoid loading by "excessive counterotation"

the Nyman "lift and pinch" (ABduct arm and horizontally aDduct/REtract scap) following this handbreak cue then encourages a good sequence.

the front and back arm actions are symmetric up to this point in throwing whereas in the swing there is more of a back and forth rhythmic alteration which is why it's nice to precede the swing motion by the Lau Sr absolute "rhythmic preswing activity".

 

[Wellphyt]

IMO, it is not the ‘rear elbow’ lowering that initiates the swing … so much as the rear elbow lowering is an outcome of an action that initiates the swing. In other words, the rear elbow lowering is a ‘result’ of the swing being initiated.

Yes, the rear elbow can be seen to lower, but IMO the ‘initial’ lowering of the rear elbow is due to external rotation of the rear humerus within the shoulder socket. That is, the elbow lowering is not just simple adduction, but includes external rotation of the rear upper arm (humerus) within the shoulder socket.

This external rotation is not an insignificant detail IMO … in that it is synchronized with other actions, including the front upper leg (femur).

When one speaks of “walking away from the hands”, one could instead instruct the synchronization of abduction (i.e., the movement away from the body’s midline) of the rear upper arm (humerus) with abduction of the upper front leg (femur). If one also internally rotates the rear upper arm (humerus) during this abduction, then often there will be a corresponding synchronized internal rotation of the upper front leg (femur). As the swing is ‘initiated’, the upper rear arm (humerus) will externally rotate, and often there will be a corresponding synchronized external rotation of the front upper leg (femur).

IMO when you get the action in the rear upper arm (humerus) correct, then often a student will have gone a long way towards building a clean synchronized swing.

FFS -

Lowering the rear elbow by just simple adduction is what my daughter was doing. We were constantly battling connection issues as described by Ken in his earlier post. The hands always seem to get left behind. I found it very frustrating.

Over the winter I figured out what you describe above. If the rear upper arm externally rotates as the rear arm adducts, all is right with the world. Everything falls into place. No fancy training devices required. I showed my daughter how to do it in about one minute. Obviously it takes many hundreds of swings before a change like this makes it into game swings, but the basic movement is simple to teach.

I would also second Tom's recommendation of Hodge. Hodge takes the overhand throw and breaks it down so any dumb dumb can teach it. Even someone like me The way Hodge demonstrates the overhand throwing motion matches up really well with what you describe above. The saying; "If you can throw...You can hit" not only encompasses balance and weight transfer, but also the rear arm and front leg action.

I found with my daughter that the "slot the rear elbow" cue gave her a very poor mental image of what the hands, arms and elbows needed to do. At the time I did not have a good understanding of how the back elbow lowered and how the front forearm lifted. To my credit, I knew I was missing a piece of the puzzle as I could see that my daughter had connection issues and had a push.

 

[lhowser]

Over the winter I figured out what you describe above. If the rear upper arm externally rotates as the rear arm adducts, all is right with the world. Everything falls into place. No fancy training devices required. I showed my daughter how to do it in about one minute.

If you could take the time to illustrate this in some way through a video or breaking down verbally what

rear upper arm externally rotates as the rear arm adducts

looks like that would be very much appreciated

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ihowser … I agree with Wellphyt. Teaching the rear upper arm mechanics is the method I use to help address the issue with a hitter that drops their hands at swing initiation. There is also the added benefit of improved synchronization of the front leg with the rear upper arm.

Years ago I posted Bonds’ swing in segments … including a segment highlighting the frames where “internal rotation” was occurring and the frames where “external rotation” was occurring. By internally rotating the rear upper arm during abduction, one is setup to naturally externally rotate the rear upper arm during adduction. This, IMO, is the sequence that takes place when Candrea speaks of “live & independent hands”. If I get time I’ll cut up a GIF and highlight the frames where “internal rotation” and “external rotation” are taking place during the swing.

If you can throw … you can hit. You wouldn’t throw using pure abduction & adduction, and you shouldn’t hit using pure abduction & adduction either.

FYI ... abduction / adduction:

 

[lhowser]

FFS, that helped me some. I'll get it but I am a little confused on the internal/external rotation. can you describe the internal rotation in terms of the position change of the upper arm from start to finish in this phase. if you can get me internally rotated I can get it back the other way!