Arm whip

[Shawn]

In my first post I wrote the following:



After some "discussion" here and my doing some further investigations/thought I understand that using the dictionary definition of "whip":



can be used to describe the softball fastpitch arm action.

But I do not view this action as an example "physics whip". My perspective is "whipping around the corner" is created by IR.

And since this forums topic is "Arm whip" and I am more interested in the specifics in what is creating "whipping around the corner" (IR) I do not want to further confuse IR and whipping in this "Arm whip" discussion.

I am more interest in "exactly how does IR increase fastpitch performance?" Perhaps topic for a new "discussion"??

Thanks again to all those who took time to post in response to what I presented here.

You’re so stupid a liar and thief. You are what someone might call the stupidest smart man I know.

 

[ArmWhip]

Internal rotation provides no mechanical advantage unless the elbow is flexed.

I use 'whip' as a descriptive term and not to necessarily depict an actual physical action. A whip is floppy and in the pitching motion the arm is loose, but not floppy. A fishing rod is probably a better physical model, with it's load-unload action, especially for the wrist. But the whip and the fishing rod operate in only one plane, the pitching/throwing arm doesn't.

 

[SETPRO]

If IR is going to become a topic of investigation would it make sense to start a new discussion specific to IR ?

I have some thoughts on the subject but would not want to mix with the original object of this discussion.

 

[RADcatcher]

stand up and crack a pretend whip overhand. now do the same thing underhand. done.

How about some fun visual with that

 

[earlg3]

How about some fun visual with that

"Pitch Lesson #256: The reverse cattleman's crack."

 

[ArmWhip]

If IR is going to become a topic of investigation would it make sense to start a new discussion specific to IR ?

I have some thoughts on the subject but would not want to mix with the original object of this discussion.

That's your call, people will see what you post regardless of where it is. For me, as an instructor, the theoretical underpinnings are of interest but not as important as methods that effectively teach the high level motion.

 

[SETPRO]

Actually after I thought about it a little bit this is the right place for discussion of IR because based on defining "whip" as "move fast or suddenly in a specified direction." describes exactly what happens with IR. So from this perspective Arm Whip and I are one in the same.

For me, as an instructor, the theoretical underpinnings are of interest but not as important as methods that effectively teach the high level motion.

Totally agree. As I posted previously "knowledge does not equal understanding". And by understanding I am referring to what's necessary to effectively instruct/teach.

Also trying to teach movement patterns is perhaps one of most difficult instructional challenges. Specific to the conversation of whip/IR and from my perspective it's not theory. IR with respect to "move fast or suddenly in a specified direction" is anatomy along with some straight forward physics/math.

Also explains/illustrates why a bent elbow so critical to effective IR throwing of the softball. There's also some physiological aspects that are really not discussed or I have not seen discussed by anyone which can be of significant value to the instructor in getting the student to better understand and effect IR.

I also want to give credit to these forums especially the posts having to do with IR that help me really solidify my understanding of what is happening with fastpitch arm action.

Something I learned very early in trying to work with players and observing others who have worked with players is how difficult it is to convey movement concepts with words. A string of words to try and convey the concept I call a "cue". For example "follow-through" is a cue. "Keep your weight back" is a cue. You never know how HQ will be processed internally by a student/player. And therefore any cue that achieves the desired movement result is a good cue.

The benefit of having a better understanding of for lack of a better word "science" of the throwing process is the ability to create better cues.

Anyways enough for now.

 

[ArmWhip]

The benefit of having a better understanding of for lack of a better word "science" of the throwing process is the ability to create better cues.

With all the high speed video and other technology that is available such as Mo Cap (motion capture) understanding the mechanics of a physical action is now the easy part, or should be. There are still way too many old school instructors out there that have no interest in challenging their methods and beliefs.

The hard part now is coming up with methods to effectively teach and/or communicate sound mechanics. It's not well known but science has been studying motor skill acquisition for over a decade now and the results are out there for those who are interested. Translating these results into common sense solutions or guidelines has been slow, and frustrating.

 

[starman]

This discussion is really interesting. I've been thinking about some of the same issues you raised over the past few weeks. My daughter recently went to a well respected pitching instructor who has coached quite a few players who throw very hard (70+ mph). The instructor gave my daughter a hard time for bending her elbow in her arm circle and told her she might never be able to throw hard if she can't unlearn that.

To be fair, my daughter had a bit more bend than might be optimal. However, I was really surprised by the instructor's advice, as it seems like some amount of bend is necessary for IR mechanics to work properly. I've been through both of Rick Pauly's certification courses and his material indicates the optimal amount of elbow bend is about 30 degrees.

I had troubling figuring out whether this was more of a cue from the instructor to get her to reduce the degree of bend and lengthen her circle or if the instructor really felt there should be no elbow bend. The instructor had her doing wrist snaps as well, which seemed like a really unnatural way to finish an IR pitch, so maybe the instructor is just more focused on HE mechanics?

This paper has some good material on average elbow flexion during a softball pitch and how elbow flexion influences velocity:

Peak Elbow Flexion Does Not Influence Peak Shoulder Distraction Force or Ball Velocity in NCAA Division I Softball Pitchers

High shoulder distraction force has been observed in softball pitchers during the acceleration phase (top of the pitch to ball release) of a pitch. Increasing elbow flexion may reduce shoulder forces and the susceptibility to pain by shortening the lever ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

They found that the average peak elbow flexion for the softball pitchers in their study was ~41 degrees and that variances in elbow flexion did not significantly influence pitch velocity.

 

[bsbs]

This discussion is really interesting. I've been thinking about some of the same issues you raised over the past few weeks. My daughter recently went to a well respected pitching instructor who has coached quite a few players who throw very hard (70+ mph). The instructor gave my daughter a hard time for bending her elbow in her arm circle and told her she might never be able to throw hard if she can't unlearn that.

To be fair, my daughter had a bit more bend than might be optimal. However, I was really surprised by the instructor's advice, as it seems like some amount of bend is necessary for IR mechanics to work properly. I've been through both of Rick Pauly's certification courses and his material indicates the optimal amount of elbow bend is about 30 degrees.

I had troubling figuring out whether this was more of a cue from the instructor to get her to reduce the degree of bend and lengthen her circle or if the instructor really felt there should be no elbow bend. The instructor had her doing wrist snaps as well, which seemed like a really unnatural way to finish an IR pitch, so maybe the instructor is just more focused on HE mechanics?

This paper has some good material on average elbow flexion during a softball pitch and how elbow flexion influences velocity:

Peak Elbow Flexion Does Not Influence Peak Shoulder Distraction Force or Ball Velocity in NCAA Division I Softball Pitchers

High shoulder distraction force has been observed in softball pitchers during the acceleration phase (top of the pitch to ball release) of a pitch. Increasing elbow flexion may reduce shoulder forces and the susceptibility to pain by shortening the lever ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

They found that the average peak elbow flexion for the softball pitchers in their study was ~41 degrees and that variances in elbow flexion did not significantly influence pitch velocity.

I think I have a decent handle on most of the mechanics. But, I feel like I don't really understand the release on the fastball.