Arm whip

[Tatonka]

Ok, so I honestly had not heard these words used before in describing the physical action used so my apologies. I have actually used a bull whip when trying to impart the feel and action of cracking the whip. Back in the day working with my DD and Java we looked at and discussed a lot the compound pendulum effect, the kinetic chain, summation of velocities, rotational movement across multiple planes and more. I must have slept through the "bow-flex-bow" piece so thank you for bringing it up and for the explanation of it in regards to actual body position through the pitch. I haven't looked at the link you offered yet but I will. Below is an excerpt from here: https://tht.fangraphs.com/exactly-what-are-effective-throwing-mechanics/
Baseball stuff but the physics still apply. Thx!

"Using the body to throw the baseball, the “bow-flex-bow.”

Athletic activity involving the generation of speed and power is typified by eccentric-concentric muscle action. The eccentric refers to a lengthening of the muscle. Concentric refers to the shortening of the muscle.

For example, to achieve a maximum standing vertical jump height, a countermovement precedes the actual jump itself. The countermovement does several things. It creates a longer distance over which to apply force. The act of going down before reversing direction generates and stores energy in connective tissue, which then can be released in the opposite direction. And it more readily prepares the muscle to reverse direction and contract more powerfully.

This same eccentric-concentric cycle can be seen in pitchers; I call it the “bow-flex-bow” cycle. This cycle describes the sequence of first bending at the waist then arching the back and then unarching the back and bending forward during the throwing cycle.

This movement can be thought of as being analogous to the cracking of a buggy whip, were first the handle of the whip is flexed backward, creating a loop in the “popper.”

Figure 9. The “buggy whip” sequence.

I first noted this phenomenon in Nolan Ryan. Later, I created a little graphic showing the cycle in the delivery of Mike Mussina.

Figure 10. Mike Musina demonstrating “bow-flex-bow” sequence"

 

[Shawn]

Ok, so I honestly had not heard these words used before in describing the physical action used so my apologies. I have actually used a bull whip when trying to impart the feel and action of cracking the whip. Back in the day working with my DD and Java we looked at and discussed a lot the compound pendulum effect, the kinetic chain, summation of velocities, rotational movement across multiple planes and more. I must have slept through the "bow-flex-bow" piece so thank you for bringing it up and for the explanation of it in regards to actual body position through the pitch. I haven't looked at the link you offered yet but I will. Below is an excerpt from here: https://tht.fangraphs.com/exactly-what-are-effective-throwing-mechanics/
Baseball stuff but the physics still apply. Thx!

"Using the body to throw the baseball, the “bow-flex-bow.”

Athletic activity involving the generation of speed and power is typified by eccentric-concentric muscle action. The eccentric refers to a lengthening of the muscle. Concentric refers to the shortening of the muscle.

For example, to achieve a maximum standing vertical jump height, a countermovement precedes the actual jump itself. The countermovement does several things. It creates a longer distance over which to apply force. The act of going down before reversing direction generates and stores energy in connective tissue, which then can be released in the opposite direction. And it more readily prepares the muscle to reverse direction and contract more powerfully.

This same eccentric-concentric cycle can be seen in pitchers; I call it the “bow-flex-bow” cycle. This cycle describes the sequence of first bending at the waist then arching the back and then unarching the back and bending forward during the throwing cycle.

This movement can be thought of as being analogous to the cracking of a buggy whip, were first the handle of the whip is flexed backward, creating a loop in the “popper.”

Figure 9. The “buggy whip” sequence.

I first noted this phenomenon in Nolan Ryan. Later, I created a little graphic showing the cycle in the delivery of Mike Mussina.

Figure 10. Mike Musina demonstrating “bow-flex-bow” sequence"

Informative, Although that Musina clip is from 20 years ago and created at Setpro. lol strike 3

The Musina clip is showing Bow and flex, the second bow is incomplete in the clip.

 

[SETPRO]

Periodically I do Internet search for specific terms. I arrived here because I was searching to see if anyone was using the concept of "bow-flex-bow" in their discussions.

I want to thank Tatonga and Shawn for adding "context" to the bow-flex-bow reference.

That being said my interest in this thread has to do with the discussion of WHIP.

Some background.

I've spent far too many hours over the years trying to better understand how the body throws a ball and swings the bat. I would say 98% of my time has been spent in the baseball world. And I probably spend more time on how the body throws the ball as opposed to swing the bat.

Over the past 50+ years there have been literally hundreds of research papers written on pitching/throwing the baseball and virtually nothing on fast pitch softball pitching. Reason being injury prevention for baseball pitchers is a multibillion dollar industry. In the bulk of the papers or should I say research on pitching is/has been with respect to injury prevention in particular UCL injuries.

I have a pretty good understanding of how the baseball throw happens. Two fundamental components rotational velocity of the upper torso and momentum transfer from larger body segments to smaller body segments creating a "whip effect". The biomechanics and physics of I think I have a reasonable understanding of.

But when it comes to pitching a softball there is a different dynamic happening which I'm not totally sure I understand.

Which brings me to why I am here. Would very much like to continue discussion on the the softball pitching process with respect to how it happens. How does the whipping process actually manifests itself in pitching a softball?

In noodling around on some of the topics I also found some of the "IR" discussion I read. Also the debate between HE and IR which I believe relates directly to the discussion of "Arm Whip".

If no one else wants to kick off the discussion as time permits all provide some additional thoughts.

I visit here periodically over the years but not in the last probably five years or so.

Some interesting stuff and hope to do some more reading.

 

[SETPRO]

I have created many baseball throwing animations. In order to create animation I must replicate the movement of each body part in time and space.

The way that I create these animations is quite time-consuming. Typically to do a new movement sequence new being defined as one I have not ever done before such as pitching softball first studying video of the movement and then replicating frame by frame using the animation process.

Using animation to try and replicate body movement gives one appreciation for how infinitely complex the body is in terms of its ability to create movement.

For example the arm has five components; Hand, wrist, forearm, upper arm, and shoulder. From my animation perspective each has typically 3 degrees if freedom. For example the hand has twist, side-side, bend. The upper arm twist, front-back, bend.

If I do a simple combinatorial calculation and if I'm doing a thirty frames per second simulation. For each frame just for the arm I have a choice of 15 different settings. If I do three settings at a time meaning one component of the arm there are 455 combinations of JUST the arm for that one frame. The same process is required for the entire body for that one frame.

Back around 2005 some parents asked me if I would create a softball fastpitch simulation/animation. I saw fast pitch softball as it's a growing sport and so was curious as to what it would take to create a fastpitch simulation.

The "hot topic" softball picture at that time was Yukiko Ueno. And that's who I chose to try and replicate as best I could given the time constraints that I had.

I spent a fair amount of time but nowhere near the amount necessary to create what I consider the best animation. It was more of an experiment.

When I think is most interesting about this animation is that it clearly demonstrates IR which is something that I was not really trying to do. I was simply trying to replicate what I saw Ueno doing when she pitched the softball.

 

[SETPRO]

"Where's the beef..."

Many who visit here probably never saw this commercial (many years ago...).

From a softball pitching perspective...... "Where's the WHIP...."

 

[CoachCeetar]

I have a pretty good understanding of how the baseball throw happens. Two fundamental components rotational velocity of the upper torso and momentum transfer from larger body segments to smaller body segments creating a "whip effect". The biomechanics and physics of I think I have a reasonable understanding of.

But when it comes to pitching a softball there is a different dynamic happening which I'm not totally sure I understand.

Which brings me to why I am here. Would very much like to continue discussion on the the softball pitching process with respect to how it happens. How does the whipping process actually manifests itself in pitching a softball?

I've only been paying attention for a bit, but it's arguably not _that_ different, just more order of operation. You're still transferring from larger body segments to smaller ones, but because the release happens at the hip, you're more focused on that chain going through the hips/lower body rather than the upper torso.

 

[SETPRO]

Thank you for taking the time to participate in the discussion.

When it comes to how momentum is transferred "order of operation is everything".

With throwing a baseball the arm moves in the same plane as the rotation of the upper body which then uncoil's the loop that the upper arm and forearm wrist hand creates i.e. the "belly of the whip".

With softball fastpitch the rotational plane of the upper body is almost 90° orthogonal to the rotation of the arm which begs the question how is the momentum of the upper body transferred to the arm?

Also the arm in fastpitch creates no loop or "belly of the whip" i.e. is held essentially straight. In order to have a whip like a fact then needs to be a segmental transfer in the same plane of rotation.

Thus from my perspective of the whip process I do not see the specifics necessary for efficient momentum transfer typical of whip/pendulum action.

 

[CoachCeetar]

I certainly don't know enough about it to articulate it in that fine detail, but remember that the upper body, in fact the whole body, has a lot of momentum towards the plate, generated by the push off. and then additional momentum from the hips closing towards the plate, and then the arm coming down the back of the circle and then the forearm.

Is the forward motion, the hips rotating and the arm circle 'ending' there not all roughly the same rotational plane?

 

[ArmWhip]

how is the momentum of the upper body transferred to the arm?

The upper body is not a major source of velocity in the fastpitch motion. The overhand throwing motion differs significantly from the fastpitch motion in that the OH motion is much more linear whereas the FP motion is largely circular. In OH the shoulder turn loads the arm, in FP the shoulder turn is minimal, it happens very close to release and doesn't contribute much in the way of velocity. In FP the shoulders are around 45 degrees open at release, or more.

Also the arm in fastpitch creates no loop or "belly of the whip" i.e. is held essentially straight. In order to have a whip like a fact then needs to be a segmental transfer in the same plane of rotation.

It is a mistake to think that in FP the arm is essentially straight, there can be a considerable amount of difference among pitchers in the amount of arm flex, or elbow bend. It's not uncommon to see a FP pitcher with almost 90 degrees of elbow bend. The arm action (by itself) in the OH motion is very similar to that of the FP motion. FP instructors often use 'skipping a stone on a pond' to illustrate this. You take the stone skipping motion, straighten up the posture a little, take some of the elbow bend out by dropping the release point down closer the leg, and you have the basic FP arm action.

 

[SETPRO]

The upper body is not a major source of velocity in the fastpitch motion. The overhand throwing motion differs significantly from the fastpitch motion in that the OH motion is much more linear whereas the FP motion is largely circular. In OH the shoulder turn loads the arm, in FP the shoulder turn is minimal, it happens very close to release and doesn't contribute much in the way of velocity. In FP the shoulders are around 45 degrees open at release, or more.

As I read this what you're saying is that you agree that the body is a significant power source for OH but not for FP. I will also make the observation that when people talk about whipping action they're usually talking about some kind of driving force that initiates the whipping action which in the case of OH pitching is the body.

It is a mistake to think that in FP the arm is essentially straight, there can be a considerable amount of difference among pitchers in the amount of arm flex, or elbow bend. It's not uncommon to see a FP pitcher with almost 90 degrees of elbow bend. The arm action (by itself) in the OH motion is very similar to that of the FP motion. FP instructors often use 'skipping a stone on a pond' to illustrate this. You take the stone skipping motion, straighten up the posture a little, take some of the elbow bend out by dropping the release point down closer the leg, and you have the basic FP arm action.

From my perspective (and the physics) it's not about whether the arm is straight or bent it's about how momentum is transferred and also how rotational speed is amplified in the throwing process. In order to have momentum transfer there must be some momentum to begin with and if you don't have the body generating it where does it come from? Secondly there must be segmental rotational transfer of the arm in order to create a velocity transformation step up that is associated with with acclerating the ball. Having a bent arm has no value unless you create this segmental transfer which typically does not occur in the fastpitch process.