About the Drop

[MikeP]

Like the point to this!

(Accept i teach catchers to field/pick dirt pitches )
Ya know...
Control the ball to control the game kinda thing....

In another discussion about wild pitches
(how to score them in the book)
Some were considering in a rulebook it said
WP anytime pitch hits the dirt.
My comment was
There are times pitches are intentionally thrown in the dirt...

Woohoo great reason to teach catchers to field dirt pitches.
Can instill confidence in the pitcher to throw it when they know it will be handled!

Friend of mine has a team that was first year 12''s this fall. By the end of fall he only had one pitcher that was very slow, so slow in fact that her drop ball either dropped on the plate or in front of it. Guess what pitch she threw a lot and what the results were.

 

[NBECoach]

One of my other personal pet peeves is this whole notion of the 0-2 waste pitch. I don't want ANY pitch to be a fatty over the middle, regardless of the count. Wasting a pitch is simply stupid and a poor use of energy. A lot of hitters change their approach with a 2 strike count, sometimes changing their stance, position in the box, etc. Those things need to be observed by everyone: pitcher, catcher and coaches because that change in approach from the hitter alters what pitch(s) to throw. I have never been a fan of an 0-2 change up, for example. Usually hitters are doing all they can to protect, they don't swing as hard and are looking for contact. These things diminish a change up's effectiveness.

And before anyone says anything about how great their daughter struck out someone on an 0-2 change up, I am speaking in general teams. I'm speaking in percentages. Yes, it can work. Yes, it can get people out.

Educate me on 0-2 pitches. I have our pitchers try to throw so the ball ends up 2 ball widths off the plate. So it's likely to be called a ball but just close enough to be swung at. It doesn't always end up there but I'd rather have them miss out on 0-2 than over the plate.

 

[Quasimodo]

One of my other personal pet peeves is this whole notion of the 0-2 waste pitch. I don't want ANY pitch to be a fatty over the middle, regardless of the count. Wasting a pitch is simply stupid and a poor use of energy. A lot of hitters change their approach with a 2 strike count, sometimes changing their stance, position in the box, etc. Those things need to be observed by everyone: pitcher, catcher and coaches because that change in approach from the hitter alters what pitch(s) to throw. I have never been a fan of an 0-2 change up, for example. Usually hitters are doing all they can to protect, they don't swing as hard and are looking for contact. These things diminish a change up's effectiveness.

And before anyone says anything about how great their daughter struck out someone on an 0-2 change up, I am speaking in general teams. I'm speaking in percentages. Yes, it can work. Yes, it can get people out.

What I would say Bill is that the concept of a "waste pitch" means different things to different skill levels. A waste pitch for a 14U pitcher is not the same as Ty Stofflet. One is used to compliment the "out" pitch, the other is to create a swing on a pitch just out of the strike zone. I do not think either are wasted, it is just a matter of ability.

Educate me on 0-2 pitches. I have our pitchers try to throw so the ball ends up 2 ball widths off the plate. So it's likely to be called a ball but just close enough to be swung at. It doesn't always end up there but I'd rather have them miss out on 0-2 than over the plate.

That is what I am saying above NBE.

 

[Hillhouse]

Educate me on 0-2 pitches. I have our pitchers try to throw so the ball ends up 2 ball widths off the plate. So it's likely to be called a ball but just close enough to be swung at. It doesn't always end up there but I'd rather have them miss out on 0-2 than over the plate.

There are so many things that make this situational. A lot of people don't understand or respect how fragile and delicate the psyche of a pitcher can be. It's no different than my argument about why changing or altering mechanics from one pitch to the next is ridiculous, it disrupts the pitcher's rhythm. Doing that on purpose is silly. And if I throw a ball on purpose with an 0-2 count, that's equally silly. Opposition will know to put the bat on their shoulder with 2 strikes, so what's the purpose?

0-2 count is no different than any other count, a pitcher has to counter whatever adjustments the hitter has made. It's that simple. Those adjustments can happen with 2 strikes, 1 strike, 3 balls, or whatever. This is also where the absurdity of not teaching pitchers/catchers how to think for themselves, constantly getting every direction from the dugout has hurt their development. A pitcher (and usually the catcher) can easily see the change in stance when a hitter makes an adjustment. But, because she gets the pitch from the dugout, she's not allowed to say or do anything which might alter that pitch coming from the dugout. (Personally, I had signals with the catchers to tell me if the hitter changed positions in the box, assuming it wasn't obvious to see for me, and the catcher let me know if there was something I wasn't seeing through signals.).

By and large, you hear coaches say to their hitter "0-2, gotta protect now" and you'll see the hitter try for contact instead of a homerun. Going for contact instead of HR alters their swing, stance, and attack. So what worked for strikes 1-2 may not work for strike 3.

I don't understand why missing over the plate is worse with 0-2 than it is with any other count. A bad pitch is a bad pitch, regardless of how many strikes there are.

 

[Gags]

One of my other personal pet peeves is this whole notion of the 0-2 waste pitch. I don't want ANY pitch to be a fatty over the middle, regardless of the count. Wasting a pitch is simply stupid and a poor use of energy. A lot of hitters change their approach with a 2 strike count, sometimes changing their stance, position in the box, etc. Those things need to be observed by everyone: pitcher, catcher and coaches because that change in approach from the hitter alters what pitch(s) to throw. I have never been a fan of an 0-2 change up, for example. Usually hitters are doing all they can to protect, they don't swing as hard and are looking for contact. These things diminish a change up's effectiveness.

And before anyone says anything about how great their daughter struck out someone on an 0-2 change up, I am speaking in general teams. I'm speaking in percentages. Yes, it can work. Yes, it can get people out.

Regardless of the count, the change-up, out of all the pitches, is often the one that needs to be either set-up the most, or is situation-dependent. Is she 0-2 b/c she's late on fastballs? This was the first concept I introduced to my catchers in 10U - don't help the batter by speeding her bat up. If the last swing and miss (or called) was high, stay fastball, but go low, go outside (change the location, per Quasi)

If she pulled the last few pitches, maybe then a changeup (obvious, yes, but at 12U, still usually successful), or just work further outside for an end of the bat dribbler back to the pitcher.

The danger of the 0-2 drop or change that's too far off the plate / in the dirt is the D3K. There's a not-insignificant amount of risk to constantly "go for the jugular" and get the K, only to still end up with a runner on 1B. Because we can't all have RAD back there saving our pitchers butts every game.

 

[Hillhouse]

What I would say Bill is that the concept of a waste pitch means different things to different skill levels. A waste pitch for a 14U pitcher is not the same as Ty Stofflet. One is used to compliment the "out" pitch, the other is to create a swing on a pitch just out of the strike zone. I do not think either are wasted, it is just a matter of ability.

I'm not comparing a 14 yr old to Ty Stofflet. I'm comparing a human being to a human being. If you notice, sometimes it's hard to have a pitcher come back and throw strikes immediately after an intentional walk... why? Because they purposely threw off their rhythm and timing. Only a select few can simply turn things on and off. "wasting a pitch" can equally throw off a rhythm. I'm not advocating throwing it down the middle, but I am not advocating that on a 0-0 count either. Giving a good hitter anything, even if its' just one ball in the at bat, is too much. IMO.

 

[Hillhouse]

Regardless of the count, the change-up, out of all the pitches, is often the one that needs to be either set-up the most, or is situation-dependent. Is she 0-2 b/c she's late on fastballs? This was the first concept I introduced to my catchers in 10U - don't help the batter by speeding her bat up. If the last swing and miss (or called) was high, stay fastball, but go low, go outside (change the location, per Quasi)

If she pulled the last few pitches, maybe then a changeup (obvious, yes, but at 12U, still usually successful), or just work further outside for an end of the bat dribbler back to the pitcher.

The danger of the 0-2 drop or change that's too far off the plate / in the dirt is the D3K. There's a not-insignificant amount of risk to constantly "go for the jugular" and get the K, only to still end up with a runner on 1B. Because we can't all have RAD back there saving our pitchers butts every game.

You just made my point about this being situational. My not wanting an 0-2 change up is just playing the percentages of how the hitters will adjust to not strike out, opting for contact only. If the 0-2 change is thrown, and the hitter taps the ball back to the pitcher on a half swing, then the pitcher still won the battle. An out is an out. So if that is your result, great. But change ups are often blooped for singles more than anything else because they are not hit very hard. Again, that's a general statement but usually holds up to be somewhat true.

 

[radness]

(Personally, I had signals with the catchers to tell me if the hitter changed positions in the box, assuming it wasn't obvious to see for me, and the catcher let me know if there was something I wasn't seeing through signals.).






By and large, you hear coaches say to their hitter "0-2, gotta protect now" and you'll see the hitter try for contact instead of a homerun. Going for contact instead of HR alters their swing, stance, and attack. So what worked for strikes 1-2 may not work for strike 3.

I don't understand why missing over the plate is worse with 0-2 than it is with any other count. A bad pitch is a bad pitch, regardless of how many strikes there are.

Right on Mr.B
Include the catchers feedback and the pitcher!

ADD~To pitchers and catchers if your coach isnt speaking to you about whats going on that day in warm ups and during the game
USE YOUR VOICES and communicate to the pitch calling coach.
Thankfully there are some coaches that allow the catcher/battery to call the game!

 

[Quasimodo]

There are so many things that make this situational. A lot of people don't understand or respect how fragile and delicate the psyche of a pitcher can be. It's no different than my argument about why changing or altering mechanics from one pitch to the next is ridiculous, it disrupts the pitcher's rhythm. Doing that on purpose is silly. And if I throw a ball on purpose with an 0-2 count, that's equally silly. Opposition will know to put the bat on their shoulder with 2 strikes, so what's the purpose?

0-2 count is no different than any other count, a pitcher has to counter whatever adjustments the hitter has made. It's that simple. Those adjustments can happen with 2 strikes, 1 strike, 3 balls, or whatever. This is also where the absurdity of not teaching pitchers/catchers how to think for themselves, constantly getting every direction from the dugout has hurt their development. A pitcher (and usually the catcher) can easily see the change in stance when a hitter makes an adjustment. But, because she gets the pitch from the dugout, she's not allowed to say or do anything which might alter that pitch coming from the dugout. (Personally, I had signals with the catchers to tell me if the hitter changed positions in the box, assuming it wasn't obvious to see for me, and the catcher let me know if there was something I wasn't seeing through signals.).

By and large, you hear coaches say to their hitter "0-2, gotta protect now" and you'll see the hitter try for contact instead of a homerun. Going for contact instead of HR alters their swing, stance, and attack. So what worked for strikes 1-2 may not work for strike 3.

I don't understand why missing over the plate is worse with 0-2 than it is with any other count. A bad pitch is a bad pitch, regardless of how many strikes there are.

I am not keen on the term "waste pitch" in the most literal sense. If you throw a change-up 2 feet off the outside corner you have accomplished nothing. I call it a setup pitch. I would prefer it invoke a swing, and if not, I would hope it puts a seed in the hitter's mind.

Not every kid, even many college pitcher's, can execute pitch command to paint every corner when desired. If it is good to throw a change-up on any count even if it isn't working, then why isn't it okay to throw a pitch that plants a similar impression on the hitter to set up the next pitch? Cat Osterman does it perfectly in the video. She would prefer to invoke a swing. If not, she is better establishing her 4th pitch or out pitch.

 

[Gags]

If the 0-2 change is thrown, and the hitter taps the ball back to the pitcher on a half swing, then the pitcher still won the battle. An out is an out. So if that is your result, great. But change ups are often blooped for singles more than anything else because they are not hit very hard. Again, that's a general statement but usually holds up to be somewhat true.

Which also goes back to one of your previous points - sometimes you make the perfect pitch, and they still hit it. When I get to play old-man baseball, I'll call for a low change, batter makes weak contact, and its a flare or such a weak dribbler that it ends up being an infield single. Other times you call for a low outside fastball, the pitcher hits the spot, and the batter adjusts / guesses right and drives it oppo. You just have to shake your head, tip your cap to the batter, and tell the [fragile and delicate] pitcher "hey man - great pitch, let's go get the next guy!"