Arm whip

[SETPRO]

I'll be the first to say that trying to understand all the details of how momentum is transferred in the throwing process is extremely complex. But it can be explained by some fairly straightforward physics.

A whipping action can occur with two or more connected segments. This video of a double pendulum (2 segments) illustrates how momentum can be transferred from segment to segment.

One segment is more massive than the other segment. They both start rotation with the same speed, the initial "push".

And you can see a very large rotational velocity increase of the less massive segment occurs under the right conditions (optimal transfer).

All whipping action utilizes this principle of transfer.

 

[SETPRO]

Is the forward motion, the hips rotating and the arm circle 'ending' there not all roughly the same rotational plane?

They may be moving forward together but not in the same plane in other words if you look at the velocity vector the velocity vectors are moving in the same direction but not the same plane. But they become mechanically coupled by the body itself.

If the body parts are free to move relative to the common connection than the velocities become additive or subtractive. Think of a very large flatbed truck traveling at a certain speed and on that flatbed is another vehicle moving in the same direction at another speed. The speed of the vehicle on the flatbed as viewed by an independent observer would be the summation of the two speeds.

But if we are describing whipping an object such as a ball it is about a multiplicative effect associated with whip action. A whip action is a velocity multiplier. It occurs when momentum is rotationally transferred from one segment typically of larger mass to another segment of smaller mass.

Straight linear as described with the flatbed is additive at best and not multiplicative.

 

[SETPRO]

It only took me a couple of posts to violate what I had said I would not do here and that was to engage in debate.

All I really wanted to do was provide some "food for thought" and not engage in what is usually wasted bandwidth.

Simply stated from now on I'm just posting my thoughts and views and will not engage in any debate.

And I'm not here to sell you anything.

And when I feel I can contribute help a parent and or player.

My reason for subscribing as a DFP vendor was simply to better identify who I am and also more importantly to support this discussion group.

How to effectively and most efficiently fastpitch is something that interests me and I would hope all those who visit here.

Thank you.

 

[ArmWhip]

Secondly there must be segmental rotational transfer of the arm in order to create a velocity transformation step up that is associated with with acclerating the ball. Having a bent arm has no value unless you create this segmental transfer which typically does not occur in the fastpitch process.

Having a bent/flexed elbow serves the same purpose in FP as it does in OH throwing, which I assume is 'segmental transfer'. The FP arm action is not simply an underhand version of cricket bowling.

 

[SETPRO]

Having a bent/flexed elbow serves the same purpose in FP as it does in OH throwing, which I assume is 'segmental transfer'.

Please post example of FP player demonstrating this. Thank you.

 

[ArmWhip]

Just turn off the volume, it's an ad.

 

[SETPRO]

In order for whip to occur there is a slowing down of one part of the arm in a speeding up of another part of the arm i.e. double pendulum effect. an overhand throwing it's very clear when that occurs the forearm goes from a typically 90° bent position to almost 0° at release of the ball. Please indicate as to what time on the video this with the fact is happening with the bent arm. Thank you..

 

[CoachCeetar]

In order for whip to occur there is a slowing down of one part of the arm in a speeding up of another part of the arm i.e. double pendulum effect. an overhand throwing it's very clear when that occurs the forearm goes from a typically 90° bent position to almost 0° at release of the ball. Please indicate as to what time on the video this with the fact is happening with the bent arm. Thank you..

0:18-0:19. But you know what point it's occurring, obviously at the moments going into release of the ball. The upper arm slows down when she brushes, but above that, her hips/body slow down as she lands, propelling the arm, and then the forearm, and then the ball, towards the plate.

I've lost the thread of what you're trying to figure out here. Whether or not whip occurs? what we mean by whip? Does it matter if it's additive or multiplicative?

 

[SETPRO]

I've lost the thread of what you're trying to figure out here. Whether or not whip occurs? what we mean by whip? Does it matter if it's additive or multiplicative?

Good questions. Thank you. I will give my reasons when time permits.

 

[SETPRO]

As I said previously my goal in posting here was not to get sucked into the black hole of "alternative facts" and "motivated reasoning" debate.

My original motivation for coming was when I discovered Tatonka had used information from my Fangraphs Hardball Times Article (so you can blame Tatonka for my being here). I also have some genuine questions regarding the difference (physics/biomechanics) between overhand throwing and fastpitch pitching.

To answer CoachCeetar quetions I was prepared to give a long and lengthy dissertation on what I think is really happening with IR and that there is a minimal whip component (as defined by physics). That basically it's a summation of speed's principal that's occurring.

But based on very limited response/audience here it's not worth the time and efforts.

So the short answers to CoachCeetar are:

Yes "I" was interested whether whip occurs in the fast pitch softball pitching motion.

Yes "I" was hoping to discuss/investigate how what whip means in fastpitch pitching..

Does it matter if it's additive or multiplicative? Totally depends on what one is trying to do. If one is trying to understand the science, then yes it does matter. If one is player trying to maximize their pitching capabilities or parent/instructor trying to instruct throwing I would say no. Simply because trying to connect science instruction can be extremely difficult. Knowledge does not equal understanding.

Why we believe alternative facts

Motivation, identity and ideology combine to undermine human judgment.

www.apa.org

Why we believe alternative facts

How motivation, identity and ideology combine to undermine human judgment

Fact or opinion?

It's a distinction we learn as kids. But it turns out judging facts isn't nearly as black-and-white as your third-grade teacher might have had you believe.

In reality, we rely on a biased set of cognitive processes to arrive at a given conclusion or belief. This natural tendency to cherry pick and twist the facts to fit with our existing beliefs is known as motivated reasoning—and we all do it.

"Motivated reasoning is a pervasive tendency of human cognition," says Peter Ditto, PhD, a social psychologist at the University of California, Irvine, who studies how motivation, emotion and intuition influence judgment. "People are capable of being thoughtful and rational, but our wishes, hopes, fears and motivations often tip the scales to make us more likely to accept something as true if it supports what we want to believe."

Alternative facts - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Alternative facts" was a phrase used by U.S. Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway during a Meet the Press interview on January 22, 2017, in which she defended White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's false statement about the attendance numbers of Donald Trump's inauguration as President of the United States. When pressed during the interview with Chuck Todd to explain why Spicer would "utter a provable falsehood", Conway stated that Spicer was giving "alternative facts". Todd responded, "Look, alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods."[1]