The latest guru on Twitter

[FiveFrameSwing]

A lot of assumptions being made here about what knowledge other people have on the matter. Several posters on here post vids/stills showing hitters TTB.. funny enough when these athletes are interviewed they don't mention anything about TTB. In fact some of them seem to talk about doing the opposite. I find it hilarious when people on forums say that these experts are not practicing what they preach. Personally I do not think TTB is the magic blue pill that you swallow and you start crapping rainbows like some of you make it out to be. Too much emphasis on it... if the pros aren't thinking TTB, then why should we emphasize it? Miggy, Pujois, Correa, Altuve, Bustos ...etc. These guys/gals aren't talking about TTB, they don't talk about that being their approach during BP. As a matter of fact, some of them talk about focusing on doing the complete opposite. I'm not saying this is not happening during their game swing.. but why does it happen if they aren't making a conscious effort for that to be the result? Everybody dismisses what Pujois demos.. why? That's his mentality, his cue and the result is what we see. Do I understand how his approach generates his game swing? No, and obviously the majority of people on this website don't. But maybe that's a question that needs answering. I believe too much emphasis on TTB ... just sayin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6y7Oyv48cs&list=PL4xF3iruXAANpfKFWy3tHZUQJ2A40vJyj

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRKb_WInmM8

Work-wins posted a video of Miggy giving advice in this thread ... he clearly spoke of one of the most important things to teach a young hitter is the act of going towards palm-up ... that's basically his way of turning the barrel.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

A lot of assumptions being made here about what knowledge other people have on the matter.

The only assumptions I'm making is from reading what folks post. I just read the other day someone talking about "vertical" TTB. From that I can tell that they're simply repeating long worn, and old misinformation about TTB, that's long since changed.

Yes, at one time the TTB to "bonk the catcher on the head" was used, but that is no longer the case, and it has been refined into a much different thing, and/or meaning. Yet here we are with folks still pigeonholing TTB into being simply just one preset or pre-defined path when that is so far from the case (truth) it's almost comical that they'd continue to push that simply for their own agenda, and/or to try to deceive new readers about believing TTB is something that it is not.

So when you say...

Yes my dd had a problem of dumping the barrel, it was the result of her trying to TTB gone astray.

...and include the old buzzword of "dumping the barrel" that is not at all what TTB produces, simply makes me "assume" that you either didn't understand the actual concept, or went about teaching it incorrectly...really the only reasons why I thought you went "astray" with it.

Several posters on here post vids/stills showing hitters TTB.. funny enough when these athletes are interviewed they don't mention anything about TTB. In fact some of them seem to talk about doing the opposite. I find it hilarious when people on forums say that these experts are not practicing what they preach. Personally I do not think TTB is the magic blue pill that you swallow and you start crapping rainbows like some of you make it out to be. Too much emphasis on it... if the pros aren't thinking TTB, then why should we emphasize it? Miggy, Pujois, Correa, Altuve, Bustos ...etc. These guys/gals aren't talking about TTB, they don't talk about that being their approach during BP. As a matter of fact, some of them talk about focusing on doing the complete opposite. I'm not saying this is not happening during their game swing.. but why does it happen if they aren't making a conscious effort for that to be the result? Everybody dismisses what Pujois demos.. why? That's his mentality, his cue and the result is what we see. Do I understand how his approach generates his game swing? No, and obviously the majority of people on this website don't. But maybe that's a question that needs answering. I believe too much emphasis on TTB ... just sayin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6y7Oyv48cs&list=PL4xF3iruXAANpfKFWy3tHZUQJ2A40vJyj

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRKb_WInmM8

Yeah, lots of words to say that you, and others don't know how Albert, and other HL hitters learned to TTB, but you also don't deny that he, and others do it in their game swings...regardless of how they learned to do it.

So do you want to take another shot at this...

Are you under the impression that TTB is a fixed movement that's the same regardless of pitch location? Did you not see all of the various location of the pitches that Miggy was TTB to in the collage that RB posted? So do you believe that hitters move their hands from their "launch position" to some other place(s) before they actually "launch" the barrel to the ball?

...to let me know if you truly understand TTB correctly or not, and we can then continue our discussion from there?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

What has been resonating for the hitters I work with is the simple cue of setting the hands on plane for a middle/middle pitch and adjusting from there as they turn the barrel. Rich using the term lasering and I use it as well. If you grab a 5' piece of pvc and hold it in the middle you can practice hitting a tossed ball with bottom end of the pvc and your hands have to be on plane. In a regular swing the barrel would naturally follow the path/plane the hands set as long as the rear forearm is supinating and the front forearm is pronating.

Please expand on "setting the hands".

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Could anyone post a gif where a hitter DOESN'T TTB??? I believe if a hitter is going to have a launch angle they must TTB in order to drive the ball. Some hitters may have a little more preset turning of the barrel in the setup. I don't know how much it needs to be taught. I am a big fan of long tee. If the hitter is launching the ball off the tee, she is TTB.

Also some hitters may snap the barrel when other might more slowly (fluidly- is that a word?) TTB.

Some folks simply have dead hands.

For some teaching the notion of "short hands" awakens the hands.

 

[Cannonball]

If we are to discuss what any of us know and our resumes, then research every poster that you find of interest and see their history here. Some, like me, have never hidden who they are, what they do, ... and have posted their child's swing from the time that they were very young until they were in college. Others have posted students. Still others have never posted any of their works. None of that truly represents what any of us know and one would only truly know by meeting us, watching a lesson, talking to those we coach and studying out posts. What worked with my dd may not work with yours. There are other factors as well including athletic ability and desire. Work ethic can not be discounted. Still, most of us are here to discuss softball and, in this forum, hitting. My dd is has graduated. Participation for me is simply recreational now. Still I enjoy coming here and so continue to post comments.

 

[FP26]

To me it really isn't a question of if TTB happens. It is more a discussion of when TTB happens. In my opinion there are really two different groups involved in this discussion.

The 'hand-centric' group (at least some of them...) will talk negatively of TTB and describe 'bopping the catcher in the head'. This is not what TTB is, in my opinion, but if it is not done properly, it can become that. I have seen hitters that I would classify as too 'one-legged'. They seem as though they are stuck on their back side trying to launch the barrel straight down at the ground behind them. This isn't what is meant by TTB, and really isn't even what is meant by turning the barrel 'rearward'.

On the other side, are the 'barrel-centric' folks. Some of them also tend to exaggerate what the hand-centric group is saying. Making comments about swinging out front, moving the knob down the length of the arms, or moving the knob to a certain location and then launching, implying that there are two completely separate motions. This is also inaccurate and is a misrepresentation.

When I first started reading on these sites, this was all confusing. Ultimately the best explanation I have seen was provided by Tewks in one of his blogs. He talked about swinging on the 'right side of your body' (or left side for a left handed hitter). The pictures below illustrate this. In my opinion this is what the 'hand-centric' and 'barrel-centric' folks are both after. Some will refer to it as 'deep whoosh'. Some are not in favor of that term. But ultimately, I think that is what most of us are looking for, just applying different terms to achieve it. Whether you feel that that the barrel needs to get to a certain place. Or you feel that the hands deliver the barrel to that place. Does it really matter? As long as you can convey the message to your hitters and they can understand and implement what Pujols is doing below, I think they are going to be fine.

Honestly, the theory of connection isn't too much different either. I know of some experts that teach that philosophy. And at least one "ex-expert" Again, this can be overbaked and done incorrectly. But when done correctly, it will also result in the images below.

 

[julray]

I hope that you don't think that I have jumped on you by posting the stills etc. that I have posted. With regards to TTB, that is the latest soup de jour. Of course all HL hitters have done it. If you look at the Babe, Ted Williams, ... they are all doing it. Pujols certainly did it in his heyday and you see various video of him used to explain it. He never heard that cue. The use of the phrase is simply a guru's change in terms to control conversations. Naturally, the term can be a very good cue if one understands the concept and how to teach it.

Per what you teach to your dd or we teach to ours. Find whatever works and use it. I would never assume that anyone who professes to be an expert really is. In fact, to me, that is a red flag. A local TB team has been sending me players here and there for the past few years to "fix" players who have been going to experts. By coming here and trying to discuss the swing, drills, ... demonstrates a major step in a journey to try to understand the swing and not to simply coach what you/anyone has been taught in the past. I hope that I am constantly learning by coming to this and other sites.

Edited to add:

In this thread I mentioned ssarge. Scott was the perfect example of a guy who could really brag a lot about what he and his daughter had achieved with regards to hitting. He had a serious resume. Yet, on this site, he deflected credit for what I know he did since I was talking to him all of the time. He was well respected by some big time college coaches. As I read various posts that he contributed to, I saw old arguments from 2009 and before. I know a couple of posters in this thread that participated in the discussions back in those threads. Somehow, we are all still getting after it.

I don't think anybody has jumped on me to be honest, so we are good. Regarding Pujois using that cue.. sure maybe he never heard of TTB. But to me, that's irrelevant. What he does demo is something entirely different than TTB. So of if his approach during BP and warm up is knob to the ball, then why is he TTB? He's an expert and true pro with tons of success..I'm pretty sure he can handle a bat make it do whatever he wants. Miggy's advice is palm up/palm down and getting on plane early and staying on plane until contact where he thinks up through. I understand how TTB achieves this, But he doesn't say anything about actively TTB with his hands to achieve this. So why does he do it? Not because he is actively thinking TTB. So why do we put so much emphasis on TTB

 

[julray]

Lets do an Einstein-like thought experiment (ok that is pushing it.. )

Are you able to speak? Answer is more than likely yes. Now try and explain to me how you do it..I bet you can give an explanation about what you think is happening based upon
what you feel but it will likely be incomplete and perhaps not even correct. Now think about how you learned to speak, did anybody actually teach you to do it? No, right?
So there is no real reason that we can expect you to be able to correctly explain how you do it....

If I was asked how do I do it, I can tell you what I wouldn't say, "I don't move my tongue or lips". That's what Pujois did when they asked him about his swing. He said knob to the ball and displayed a chopping down motion. Bustos displayed in exaggerated fashion knob to the ball. Those approaches are the complete opposite of TTB

 

[julray]

Work-wins posted a video of Miggy giving advice in this thread ... he clearly spoke of one of the most important things to teach a young hitter is the act of going towards palm-up ... that's basically his way of turning the barrel.

Fair enough, I can understand that. Now explain what Pujois and Bustos is getting at in the videos I posted and how that relates to TTB

 

[julray]

Just my opinion. Turn the barrel is present in all great swings. It’s a result of other actions that have taken place in the swing. If you were making ‘turn the barrel’ an action. I can see why you were having trouble. It is a reaction to upstream mechanics . It is an absolute of a high level swing imo. I prefer to call it loading the barrel. Hope this helps. I would look to BBD or PM one of the long time members here that you trust to understand what your after. I have had a good private convos with senior members here. Keep workin. That’s the only way!

IDK if TTB is apparent in every successful hitter in fastpitch and baseball. I seriously doubt it is. However I can certainly see the validity of it. I share your opinion, it is the result and/or used in conjunction with other actions that take place in the swing