Palm up at 9 oclock?

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Finch Palm Up at 3:00.....

Hillhouse transition from facing the pitcher at the top to facing the sky at 3:00..........

Alicia Hollowell going Palm Up at 3:00........

A good way to refer to this is the "lag position" down the circle..........

BM - with Finch and Hollowell's grainy video, its difficult to see the postion of the hand at 3:00 but looking at all of the pitching videos on this site and many others, I still do not see the hand "palm to the sky" (My definition "palm to the sky" is you could hold a tray of drinks on your palm and not spill them). What I see happening in almost all of these video clips is right after 12 o'clock (palm to catcher), the elbow starts to be "slotted" into the right hip causing the palm to "open up" into a position somewhere between "palm to the sky" and 3B. As the elbow reaches the hip the palm turns over to 3B and finally behind the ball at actual release.

Maybe "palm to the sky" is ideal at 3:00, I just haven't seen anyone who actually does it.

FYI - asking adults on this site to "review and report back" comes across as condesending. I appreciate your expertise and knowledge of the windmill pitch, without the attitude. Thanks.

 

[Bruce_W]

Maybe "palm to the sky" is ideal at 3:00, I just haven't seen anyone who actually does it.

FYI - asking adults on this site to "review and report back" comes across as condesending. I appreciate your expertise and knowledge of the windmill pitch, without the attitude. Thanks.

Seriously?
Here is BM's reply

"Yes you are missing somthing..........Especially with Finch..........

I'd suggest reviewing this clip from 12:00 to 3:00 frame by frame........Take note of where the thumb is pointing, and ball/palm position at 3:00..........

Report back............"

Sorry but the only attitude I detect is yours. You asked if you were missing something and he stops the frame right there at 3 and shows you point blank what he is trying to convey. If you don't agree then thats fine but you are way off base with the condescending remark. The reason I wrote is BM is the main reason I read this board and I would hate to see him discouraged to post by this kind of reply.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Seriously?
Here is BM's reply

Sorry but the only attitude I detect is yours. You asked if you were missing something and he stops the frame right there at 3 and shows you point blank what he is trying to convey. If you don't agree then thats fine but you are way off base with the condescending remark. The reason I wrote is BM is the main reason I read this board and I would hate to see him discouraged to post by this kind of reply.

I have been a big fan of BM for a while now and have stated it several times. His I/R thread is a classic as far as I am concerned. He really made me and a lot other people on this site rethink the way PCs are teaching our young pitchers ("bowling", "strong arm finish". etc.).

With that said, I think its important to critically examine information especially about pitching mechanics. One way to do this is to evaulate what is being taught and what actual high-level pitchers are doing. When I read on this post that at 3:00 the palm should be "to the sky", I decided to review videos of elite pitchers to see if this is exactly what they do. I was a little surprised that I could not find a video that definitively shows "Palm to the sky", with the thumb pointing directly to 1B (for a RHP). Additional videos supplied on this post are still inconclusive to my eye (maybe others disagree) and seem to support the position that at 3:00, the palm is less than (i.e. more closed towards 3B) than originally thought?

I would suggest to you to try putting your "palm to the sky" at 3:00 with your stride foot at 45 degree plant and see if you experience stress to the wrist, forearm, elbow, and shoulder.

 

[BoardMember]

I have been a big fan of BM for a while now and have stated it several times. His I/R thread is a classic as far as I am concerned. He really made me and a lot other people on this site rethink the way PCs are teaching our young pitchers ("bowling", "strong arm finish". etc.).

With that said, I think its important to critically examine information especially about pitching mechanics. One way to do this is to evaulate what is being taught and what actual high-level pitchers are doing. When I read on this post that at 3:00 the palm should be "to the sky", I decided to review videos of elite pitchers to see if this is exactly what they do. I was a little surprised that I could not find a video that definitively shows "Palm to the sky", with the thumb pointing directly to 1B (for a RHP). Additional videos supplied on this post are still inconclusive to my eye (maybe others disagree) and seem to support the position that at 3:00, the palm is less than (i.e. more closed towards 3B) than originally thought?

I would suggest to you to try putting your "palm to the sky" at 3:00 with your stride foot at 45 degree plant and see if you experience stress to the wrist, forearm, elbow, and shoulder.

SoCal........2 things........First I wasn't being condesending in my post..........I seriously wanted you to go watch a "clear" clip and report back what you saw in the Finch quicktime clip.......

Second, I have NO problem at all with critical thinking and verification............And in fact.......I have no problem at all if you think I'm all wet and you don't teach your students what I suggest.........

In the "grainy" video of Finch, you can clearly see her hand completely under the ball with her fingers facing directly back to 2nd base for a long time in the clip.........Unless your trying not to see it.........Which we sometimes do when trying to reconcile things in our mind........

Since you used Sarah Pauly as an example of someone who you "see" keeps the ball facing 3rd all the way down the circle.............

This is a still of Sarah Pauly's rise ball at 3:00.......You either see the fingers/palm under the ball and the ball facing the sky palm up, or you see it facing 3rd........It's up to you.........IMO, this palm/ball is not close to facing 3rd base at 3:00as you suggested in your opening post........

(see Sarah Pauly and Jennie Finch videos), what I am seeing is the palm starts facing 3rd base from the top of the arm circle (12 o'clock) and pretty much stays there until just prior to 6 o'clock

This is a clip of Sarah's curveball showing the transition from ball/palm facing 3rd to ball/palm facing the sky.......You either see or you don't..........

Either way it's your choice as what you choose to see, feel and teach..........

BTW.........IF you are standing open from the target line like Sarah......You'll have ZERO problem with turning your palm to the sky at 3:00...........

It you are standing closed to the target you probably can't do it without undue pressure on the joints/muscles........

One last thing SoCal......I just re-read and you said something about the thumb facing first base?.........If you are looking at thumb position on the best mature high level pitchers......The thumb is NEVER on the index finger side of the ball......So it will never face first base......

The thumb is either directly opposite the middle finger.......Or even "curled" slightly toward the pinkie finger as in Sarah's case with the curve ball to allow the fingers to influence the spin more then the thumb blocks the spin.......

 

[Sponge]

So this post is getting to exactly what I was asking. I appreciate all the input and BM you are clarifying as you do so well. ONe other thing that Im curious about, and I haven't heard it commented on. In Sarah Paulys video (not the one posted here) Rick talks about a slight snapping of the hips prior to the ball coming through. Not a closing almost a trigger to begin the sequence. So your not completly wide open but your not closing the hips more of a trigger. Does this fit into the IR sequesnce. When I try it, it seems natural, but I also know you dont want to end up throwing aorund your hips either.

Thanks again.

 

[BoardMember]

So this post is getting to exactly what I was asking. I appreciate all the input and BM you are clarifying as you do so well. ONe other thing that Im curious about, and I haven't heard it commented on. In Sarah Paulys video (not the one posted here) Rick talks about a slight snapping of the hips prior to the ball coming through. Not a closing almost a trigger to begin the sequence. So your not completly wide open but your not closing the hips more of a trigger. Does this fit into the IR sequesnce. When I try it, it seems natural, but I also know you dont want to end up throwing aorund your hips either.

Thanks again.

Sponge........No doubt there is a "contraction" occuring in the muscles surrounding the hips/pelvic girdle..............The glutes, quads, hip flexors, obliques and probably many more I don't care to research the names of........They are all contracting pretty hard to "pull together" the stretch created during the arm circle and stride..........At the last moment, just before release, everything kind of "sucks together" that will create what could be contstrued as a "hip snap" that doesn't involve "squaring" to the target.......

This is probably what Rick is speaking of......It provides the last bit of "fast muscle twitch" power from the lower body...........

If you play this clip in real time, this appears as a "hip snap"..........

 

[knightsb]

Finch Palm Up at 3:00.....

Hillhouse transition from facing the pitcher at the top to facing the sky at 3:00..........

Alicia Hollowell going Palm Up at 3:00........

A good way to refer to this is the "lag position" down the circle..........

BM, Is it normal using this pitching style for the glove hand to open up so far toward first base vs pointing toward the catcher? I am working with my daughter using the instruction found in both the Osterman and Hillhouse pitching DVDs.

 

[BoardMember]

The glove hand is a "no teach" IMO........Emphasis on proper mechanics of the lower body and throwing motion will dictate what the "other side" does to counter balance the system.........

Some keep the glove "closer" to the target line.........While MANY others move it away and back in........There IS NO absolute for this action.........

IF you are not careful, you will coach the athletisism OUT of the "natural athelete".............

The glove hand should be a "no teach"..........Anything the glove hand is doing is a reaction to other parts of the system........

Get the system right, and the glove hand will naturally work to provide balance AND stretch to prepare for the contaction of the whipping sequence........

 

[Screwball]

Yes, you have to know what type of pitch is being thrown when looking at these freeze frames.

 

[bwalk63]

been awhile since I have posted but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in on this even though it worth only about 1/2 a cent. Wouldn't the hand position(at least for the ages of the girls we are talking about) depend at least a little on the pitch being thrown? I know for my DD it does. Now she isn't a "prodigy" or anything but she is a very good pitcher and has improved tremendously since I have started reading all the knowledge here. Since the last time I have posted she has picked up 4 MPh and is throwing a pretty decent rise and a peel drop. Here are a few pictures taken in the past couple off weeks, The pics in the red uniforms were taken just this week at Nationals in Peoria IL. I know she still needs work o mechanics but she is getting there.