Two Seamers

[BuckeyeGuy]

a) There is no difference in movement between a 2 seam and a 4 seam pitch. There is a difference in perception of the two pitches. But, the actual flight paths don't vary.
b) In baseball, some pitchers throw a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball with different arm slots. If so, then there is a difference in movement *in baseball*. But, in softball, a pitcher can't vary the arm slot.

Wasn't this covered earlier in the thread?

Slug, I was with you initially but JJ showed me the error of my ways. It's a question of symmetry during the flight path. The 4-seam has symmetry at any orientation where the 2-seam does not.

Having had DD practice with it (and me on my bucket), I can say anecdotally that there is actual movement that doesn't happen with a 4-seam pitch. We're going to work hard on it during the off-season. When she threw it well it tailed away from a righty, and coming from a lefty pitcher that should be a pretty good out pitch!

 

[sluggers]

JJ:

a) As to the Garcia pitch, where are other examples of the same movement? This one video shows the ball moving in an odd direction...but, it could have been due to the wind just as easily as the spin of the ball. Showing a single video of one pitch does not prove that someone can throw the same pitch with the same movement a second time.

b) Assuming, for the sake or argument that such a pitch does exist, where is any proof that one can be thrown in softball? Perfect circle's proof seems to be based on 14U batters swinging at bad pitches. His other clip doesn't show anything...I can't see the spin and I can't see the movement.

c) Assuming, for the sake argument that a 14U kid can throw one, how does that advance the pitcher one iota? These kids need one more mediocre pitch like they need a hole in the head. You already have Daddies running around trying to teach their DDs screws, curves, rises, drops, etc. And their pitches have no movement.

You guys drink the Kool Aid too fast.

Monica Abbott, the best pitcher in the world, throws a fastball and changeup. No curve, no screw, no rise, no drop. Just fastball-changeup.

Success at pitching is based on control, speed, movement and the pitcher's knowledge of the game. It is a lot of work. It takes a tremendous amount of time. And, finally, the kid has to have some genetics that most other kids don't have.

There just aren't short cuts. Sorry.

 

[JJsqueeze]

A) How many examples need to be shown to prove that it indeed breaks? Give me a number and I will get to work.

B) I don't know about other's experience, but mine is that I can curve a softball a lot more easily than a baseball because of the raised seams. It doesn't seem to be as sharp, I think this is just the heavier mass in action, but getting movement on a softball is much easier overhand for me than a baseball. I also stood behind the backstop and had my jaw drop watching DDs two seam break in warmups. Then I watched her no hit a HS team with a WHOLE LOT of swings that completely missed the bat...not the bat going over or under the ball, the bat not even having enough length to reach the pitch. One of these batters played TB with DD and was a bruiser and did not miss pitches like that in all the games I had watched her before. All anecdotal, I know, but I would not so easily discount direct observation as someone just being tricked or drinking the kool aid.

C) What makes you think it is mediocre? Some of them come off and break about 8-12 inches. Sometimes I miss them completely. This is rare but some of them just really break a lot.

I am a breaking pitch doubting Thomas...I rarely see pitches move and I stand behind a lot of backstops...the two seam moves and sometimes a lot.

I will try to get video, really busy with work but it has been on my list.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Here is a clip of a knuckleball...it moves for the same reasons a 2 seam fastball moves....it ain't spin either.

did I already post this earlier in the thread? if so then forgive an old man....

 

[riseball]

...There is no difference in movement between a 2 seam and a 4 seam pitch...the actual flight paths don't vary...

Quite true, just as there is no difference between a nail and a screw. They both accomplish the same thing. The how is another story.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Here is a clip of a knuckleball...it moves for the same reasons a 2 seam fastball moves....it ain't spin either.

did I already post this earlier in the thread? if so then forgive an old man....

That catcher is the very definition of 'baffled' lol!

 

[riseball]

Looks to me like he ended up with his glove between his eyes and the ball. Hard to catch what you can't see.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Looks to me like he ended up with his glove between his eyes and the ball. Hard to catch what you can't see.

That would only matter if his eyes were open lol!

 

[javasource]

a) There is no difference in movement between a 2 seam and a 4 seam pitch. There is a difference in perception of the two pitches. But, the actual flight paths don't vary.

Would you say that they are always thrown on the same axis? Just curious.

Would you say that perception is important in a movement pitch?

Is the thrown path more important than the batter’s perceived path?

b) But, in softball, a pitcher can't vary the arm slot..

What do you mean by this? Could you explain? Are you saying that the angle of the arm from the body is always the same for a given pitcher (or all?)… in other words… an absolute? When I think arm slot… I think the upper arm… and the relationship/angle to the side/torso…

c) Assuming, for the sake argument that a 14U kid can throw one, how does that advance the pitcher one iota?

If there is no difference in flight path between a 4 and a 2… as you stated above, why is throwing a 2-seam less ideal?

Monica Abbott, the best pitcher in the world, throws a fastball and changeup. No curve, no screw, no rise, no drop. Just fastball-changeup.

Just two pitches? I’ve added numbers as reference… could you tell me which of these is which? I’ve slowed it down so that you could see the articulations of each… they all seem sorta unique, no?

 

[Joseph Sciara]

We flirted with 2-seamers at practice this week. We placed the finger on the seam and she applied slightly more pressure. Then we placed the opposite finger on the other seam, and applied slight pressure. I told her to throw both otherwise like a normal fastball. One moves in, the other moved out. Both were very raw, but showed definite movement. Finger pressure has a lot to do with it. There was enough there that we will continue to spnd the last 5-10 minutes of a practices tinkering with it. You can call it chasing unicorns all you want, but if it gets us a little more movement, then great.

Fwiw, just holding the ball at two seams isn't going to do anything. Its the combination of two seams and finger pressure. BTW, finger pressure is a heck of a lot easier to learn than spinning a ball