Two Seamers

[BuckeyeGuy]

Fwiw, just holding the ball at two seams isn't going to do anything.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree here. If all else is the same except the orientation of 4-seam vs 2-seam, the 2-seam will have much less "bite" on the air, by which I mean that a 2-seam will have slower flowing air under the ball than a 4-seam due to fewer seams in the air flow around the ball. This means a 2-seam will have greater air pressure underneath than a 4-seam, and so less drop (assuming we're talking about a 12-6 rotation). I'm not sure that having a pitch with less movement is desirable, but that's what ought to happen. To be honest, I'm not sure that the short time of flight in fast pitch would allow for a noticeable difference?

Now, if I understand the whole finger pressure thing (and I probably don't, so be gentle), the finger pressure helps to determine the yaw orientation of the ball as it travels? If so, it would make sense for finger pressure to be the key to getting the ball to move east-west.

 

[riseball]

...Now, if I understand the whole finger pressure thing (and I probably don't, so be gentle), the finger pressure helps to determine the yaw orientation of the ball as it travels? If so, it would make sense for finger pressure to be the key to getting the ball to move east-west.

Technically it is which finger(s) come off the ball last that causes the change in movement. Which to your point is accomplished by finger pressure. When toying with finger pressure it is not always about increasing the pressure. When possible it is more desirable to reduce the pressure as increasing pressure may reduce velocity. In addition to orientation of the fingers, do not ignore the thumb. Changing the position of the thumb can also make a difference. As with any pitch you will need to play around with the positioning and the pressure to get consistent movement. Some pitchers get immediate results, for others it takes some time. Keep in mind that finger pressure is not a 2 seam thing, it affects every pitch thrown.

 

[Perfect Circle]

4 > 8-9yr olds

Spot Spin Speed....

After they can hit the spot... *(ThrowStrikes 80-90%) *(fast or slow...but Legal) *(IR HE Whatever) Have them throw same way they have been... just have them throw everyother one 4 & 2 seams. Then have them put pads of fingers&thumb over the seams...everyother one 4 & 2 seams.

Then no finger&thumbs on a seam everyother one 4 & 2 seams. I call it a Baldheaded Ball.

Then ask them which way they like best....

 

[sluggers]

Java...my man.

What they are talking about in this thread is much more complicated than simply changing the seam orientation. The pitch currently under discussion is almost impossible to throw.

In order to get the movement they desire, there has to be an asymmetry to the ball's profile in the direction of movement in flight. The spin axis has to be tilted backwards. In other words, the spin axis is somewhere between bulletspin and perfect curveball axis. (God help us all.)

There are actual examples using light balls with lots of surface area where this orientation is achieved, and the ball moves in a direction opposite to that suggested by the spin. In other words, if you get the spin axis and the seams oriented "just so", a ball with curveball spin breaks to the right. It is fascinating.

There are only perhaps 3 or 4 instances where MLB pitchers, paid millions of dollars per year to throw a ball, have achieved this type of movement. I believe that a particular baseball fanatic physicist went through several years of data, and found only a few instances of the pitch.

My problem this whole discussion: Over hundreds of thousands of pitches, professional athletes in absolutely stellar physical condition who have pitched for years have achieved this particular movement four times. But, at DFP, we have several 12YOA girls who can do it as regular as the sun is coming in the morning.

Would you say that perception is important in a movement pitch?

Perception is everything in pitching. Pitching (vs. "a pitch") is the use of different pitches in combination.

The "late breaking pitch' is an example of perception. The effectiveness of a "late breaking pitch" is based upon the pitcher fastball, not the amount of movement of the pitch.

E.g., if a pitcher throws nothing but curveballs, the battle will never perceive a "late break". The batter anticipates that the pitch is a curveball, and thus tracks the ball correctly The batter is not surprised by the ball movement, and therefore doesn't see a "late break".

But suppose the pitcher throws 10 fastballs in a row. Then, the pitcher throws a curveball which has an initial flight path similar to that of a fastball. *THEN* the batter perceives a late break, because the batter thought/guessed/perceived the pitch as a fastball. She is "surprised" when the pitch was not where she guessed it would be, and therefore perceives a late break.

Is the thrown path more important than the batter’s perceived path?

Generally, a pitcher's success against good hitters is based upon how often she can confuse the batters perception.

"Perceived path" to me is the path the batter guesses/determines based upon her observation of the pitch and pitcher.

The pitcher throws a riseball. She expects a particular path. To the pitcher and catcher, the actual path is more important to them than the batter's perception--because that tells them whether the pitch "worked".

To the batter, the issue is whether the perceived path is the same as the actual path. If it is the same, a good batter should be able to hit the ball. If it is not, then the batter will miss the ball.

But, in softball, a pitcher can't vary the arm slot.. What do you mean by this? Could you explain? Are you saying that the angle of the arm from the body is always the same for a given pitcher (or all?)… in other words… an absolute? When I think arm slot… I think the upper arm… and the relationship/angle to the side/torso…

Arm slot is the path a baseball pitcher's arm follows in a pitch. So, e.g., sidearm has a different arm slot than an overhand throw versus an "over the top" throw. The angle of the arm with respect to the body can change in pitching. But, tn softball, the arm slot can't vary. The rules require a specific arm slot.

There is a ton of scientific research that shows that seam orientation doesn't effect ball flight if the spin axis is the same (unless you get the weird ball axis tilted backwards or forwards).

But, in baseball, pitchers who *REALLY* throw a 2-seam/4-seam pitch (as opposed to crap you read about on bulletin boards) actually vary their arm slot between the two pitches. So, rather than coming "over the top", the pitcher drops the arm to the side maybe 15 or 20 degrees. The result is that the angle of the spin axis is different, resulting in different movement of the ball.

c) Assuming, for the sake argument that a 14U kid can throw one, how does that advance the pitcher one iota?
If there is no difference in flight path between a 4 and a 2… as you stated above, why is throwing a 2-seam less ideal?

"Ideal" isn't the word I would use.

A pitcher has to know what she is throwing and why is throwing it.

To *MOST* batters, a 2-seam pitch will appear slower than a 4-seam pitch. Due to the orientation of the seams on a 4 seam pitch, the ball looks like a yellow blob. On a 2-seam pitch, the ball has a bright yellow center. Because a 2 seam pitch is easier to see, the batter perceives the pitch as slower.

A smart pitcher, therefore, could very the batters perception of speed by changing the orientation of the seams...thus, throwing an off-speed pitch without changing anything.

Monica Abbott, the best pitcher in the world, throws a fastball and changeup. No curve, no screw, no rise, no drop. Just fastball-changeup.
Just two pitches? I’ve added numbers as reference… could you tell me which of these is which? I’ve slowed it down so that you could see the articulations of each… they all seem sorta unique, no?

LOL. I understand where you are coming from.

Monica has been pitching in Japan. She changed.

I watched the NPF championship games this year. For the first time, they had super slow motion cameras, and so you could clearly see the spin on the ball.

Every pitch she threw was bullet spin. She didn't throw any curves, drops or rises. Just one bullet spin fastball after another. She would vary the location of the pitches--up/down/in/out. She would sometimes throw a change.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Sluggers- can a knuckleball break? if so why?

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

The pitch currently under discussion is almost impossible to throw.

In order to get the movement they desire, there has to be an asymmetry to the ball's profile in the direction of movement in flight. The spin axis has to be tilted backwards. In other words, the spin axis is somewhere between bulletspin and perfect curveball axis...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by tilting the spin axis backward? Can we at least define the work area here, use roll, pitch, yaw, flight path from P to C? If we are ok using these terms, then a regular ol' 4-seamer has a spin axis that is perpendicular to the flight path in both the yaw and roll planes, yes? And when I read about the 1-7 spin, to me that's changing the spin axis in the roll plane but not the yaw plane.

The way the 2-seamer was explained to me earlier in the thread, the grip is a 2-seam and the spin axis is rotated somewhat about the yaw plane, no longer perpendicular to the flight path in yaw but still perpendicular in the roll plane.

No idea if I'm describing this well at all or just confusing myself...

Anyway, if we're on the same page here, what makes this an almost impossible pitch to throw?

 

[Perfect Circle]

I know you have seen this before, but "Pictures save a thousand words"~??? ".gif saves a Million"~PC

Everyone of the 4 pitches is 2 seam. I like to watch the catchers perception, as they move to catch the ball and when they have to change their glove orientation. Mine is last minute , because I called the pitch...You gotta see the tape on the ball... just like my avatar.

Watch the catchers mit

Can't see catchers reaction, but you can see the movement of a 2Seamer. None of the hitters reach & swing for a outside pitch. the curve wasn't really breaking in first ^ .gif training in Feb-March... But by game time it was on.... think all 11k's was Curve... there was 12 K's that game...

[video]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58923514/STK/game2.mp4[/video]

 

[JJsqueeze]

Turned on the Dodger game and was greeted by this gem after about 3 minutes. Maybe it is not so rare? Two seamer gets Agon swinging

 

[DNeeld]

I know you have seen this before, but "Pictures save a thousand words"~??? ".gif saves a Million"~PC

Everyone of the 4 pitches is 2 seam.

Every one of the pitches has virtually the same spin axis as well, so I'm not sure they can be labelled four different pitches.

I also didn't really see movement on them. Really, all I saw was high, low, outside, and inside. Not sure this is video evidence of 2-seams dancing.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Every one of the pitches has virtually the same spin axis as well, so I'm not sure they can be labelled four different pitches.

I also didn't really see movement on them. Really, all I saw was high, low, outside, and inside. Not sure this is video evidence of 2-seams dancing.

Exactly Same Axis... 12/6 & 2Seamers.... That's what the tape is on there to show...Had an expert tell me the movement could be caused by the tape....But does the same thing in game footage (no taped balls)

Wasn't making a point of it dancing... My point is that this is what DD has done since she preferred 2Seamers a long time ago. They have to hit it dead in the middle or you ground out, or pop up to 2nd. Some have, most don't. I agree w/ thread that it is something you want to start out teaching your pitcher after the 80% accuracy threshold is accomplished.

All DD's pitches have been Filed under CU's. She is ready to move to Speed from spin & spot. Its that time in the journey. She's 13, 5'5", 115lbs. Now it's all about 64mph & the fences... We got the lard for the yard

If you can produce any of the evidence, or find it .... pro or con let me know...