In a mood, I can't take it anymore... and it started with backdoor curve.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You could read that sentence as Bill just describing the rise in both ways (doesn't fall as much OR rises) to accommodate both viewpoints and avoid someone focusing on the language of his example (not the actual intended point about the catcher's role in managing the PU) and turning this into a does a riseball rise thread.

I personally read "or comes up" as ... "or comes up" ... which clearly doesn't happen. Bill suggests that such a pitch would fool a lot of umpires ... and it would ... as well as virtually anyone else.

Bill had some good points ... such as the importance of the wrist & fingers as they pertain to throwing a riseball ... and the importance of mastering a few pitches rather than having familiarity with several pitches.

Bill had some weak points ... such as suggesting limited value of a curveball and screwball ... and the notion that a low-level riseball can lift up into the zone from below.

The argument against throwing a strike doesn't just pertain to screwballs and curveballs.

The argument against flat-lining a pitch is sort of silly when you bring up the value of a low-level riseball in the same post.

 

[riseball]

The low-level rise does not come up into the bottom of the zone.

I welcome video attempting to prove me incorrect on this point.

Mental masturbation now requires a video?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mental masturbation now requires a video?

If Bill can produce a video of a low-level riseball lifting up into the strike zone then I'd like to see it.

 

[JJsqueeze]

yes- you clearly do read it that way, but is it really worth focusing in on it when it is not the point he was making? He was making a point about catcher's managing the PU, why focus on this tidbit?

One of the thing I value the most about the pitching forum is the fact that we have a group of the best pitching coaches in the nation dropping by at least occasionally, Bill is one of those guys. We don't have to kiss his rear, but we also don't need to pick apart his content looking for things to disagree on for the sake of disagreeing. Maybe if that aspect of the forum was lessened he and the other's who's participation has dropped might come around more often (BM? Rich Balswick?). I am thankful that Rick and Javasource still contribute as much as they do, but even Java has dropped off a bit.

Like it or not there is a pecking order, and these guys that have played the game and teach students at the top levels are the BSDs, pointing out some minor detail to challenge them on does not put you or anyone else on their level. It just comes off as snarky. Take it or leave it but it is the truth none the less.

just so no one googles it and thinks I was referring to Bemuda Shorts Day..

Urban Dictionary: BSD

 

[Doug Romrell]

The low-level rise does not come up into the bottom of the zone.

Given I believe most, if not all, right-handed riseball pitchers have a riseball with a tilted axis (axis tilted toward curve), I think a "low-level" rise can come into the inside part of the strike zone after appearing initially to be too far inside (i.e., inside ball). Doesn't take much curve movement for this to happen. With regards to coming up.... Given it's initial release trajectory (low), it can fool the batter into thinking it's going to end up TOO low (below the strike zone), but given the great back-spin it doesn't fall nearly as much as expected, maybe giving the appearance that it moved up into the zone. Batter fooled by pitcher. Hopefully the umpire is good enough to see it as a strike.

Given this, and given it's hard to film the actual fooling of the batter in this regard, what's the need for a clip. It's hard to prove what I describe above with a clip. Isn't it Sluggers (and others) who has information on how much less a riseball falls relative to the other pitches, thrown at various velocities and rate of spin? That, to me, is of much greater value in this regard than trying to find a clip of a ball breaking upward from its original trajectory.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Right ... and when someone of Bill's caliber suggests that the low-level riseball lifts up into the zone, I invite seeing video confirmation of that ever happening.

Might Bill be talking of the batters perception? If anyone believed the pitch broke upward, it surely would be the batter who didn't swing at such a pitch and got a strike called on him/her. Of course, the batter being fooled into thinking the ball was going to end up lower than it ended up is really all that is needed, right?

I really do hope this thread doesn't turn into a "Does the riseball break upward?" thread.

I'll tell you this..... When Bill Hillhouse posts, most here, who are interested in pitching mechanics, pay very close attention to what he has to say. I generally glean a lot of information from most of Hillhouse's posts. It was great to have Boardmember chime in, as it game additional RICH information.

In fact, I think it would be great to have some sort of sticky where only the most respected of pitching experts here could discuss pitching with each other for the rest of us to observe. I guess it would be difficult for the administrators to draw the line as to who are the experts and who aren't. Clearly, that list would include Hillhouse, Pauly, Boardmember, Javasource, and a few others (can't remember names right now).

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Might Bill be talking of the batters perception? If anyone believed the pitch broke upward, it surely would be the batter who didn't swing at such a pitch and got a strike called on him/her.

I really do hope this thread doesn't turn into a "Does the riseball break upward?" thread.

Hence the reason to seek clarity. If some newbie reads this, and is persuaded into thinking they can throw a ball down in the zone, thinking that the spin will bring it back up, then we can save them a bit of time and wasted energy.

 

[JJsqueeze]

like I said, take it or leave it, I am only trying to help you. a simple "my bad" is always an option if you find yourself on the wrong end of something.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

like I said, take it or leave it, I am only trying to help you. a simple "my bad" is always an option if you find yourself on the wrong end of something.

You are missing an option ... "or discuss it".

 

[JJsqueeze]

yeah- I'm done with this now, off to the fields for the first friendly with the lil one's new team. First year 12s so it should be gruesome when they play the second year teams.