In a mood, I can't take it anymore... and it started with backdoor curve.

[Cowdogz]

I was going to start a thread. Titled " drop, change, and rise."



Why are these three pitches you only go with. Please explain the science behind it .

Bill likes the ball to change planes. Every pitch in baseball changes planes by definition, b/c it is thrown off a hill on a downward trajectory. It starts out of the strike zone and moves into it. A fastball in softball starts at the pitcher's hip (in the strike zone) and doesn't move much from there. IIRC, I've heard Bill go so far as to say a softball pitcher shouldn't throw a fastball, and the primary pitch should be a drop.

Someone, hopefully Bill, will correct me if I got that wrong.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Bill likes the ball to change planes. Every pitch in baseball changes planes by definition, b/c it is thrown off a hill on a downward trajectory. It starts out of the strike zone and moves into it. A fastball in softball starts at the pitcher's hip (in the strike zone) and doesn't move much from there. IIRC, I've heard Bill go so far as to say a softball pitcher shouldn't throw a fastball, and the primary pitch should be a drop.

Someone, hopefully Bill, will correct me if I got that wrong.

I've heard Bill refer to a fastball as a dropball. I can send you video of Bill stating this if you'd like.

 

[Cannonball]

O... The catcher can also tap the umpire's foot when throwing a tricky pitch like a low rise which is known to fool a lot of umpires who think it's going to drop out of the zone when it stays (or comes up) into the bottom of the zone.

...
Bill

I took this to mean that a riseball that was for sure in the zone but low in the zone along with a riseball that was borderline low that was then deemed to be a strike. That one could be called either way thus letting the umpire be aware of the type of pitch. I didn't take this to mean that while in flight, the ball suddenly broke up changing planes. Of course I read this in this manner because I don't believe a riseball changes planes upward while in flight from its initial trajectory.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

BM caught on to Bill’s strawman-like arguments. They seemed obvious to me. What brought the strawman-like argument to a highlight for me was the mention of Mike White. Why is that? I know from first-hand experience that Mike White throws a curveball. I’ve personally caught Mike’s curveball. I’ve personally seen Mike instruct how to throw a curveball.

Bill also mentioned Rick Pauly. I worked with a pitcher that later pitched for Rick. I spoke with her this morning. She tells me that Rick taught a curveball and that Rick would have her throw two types of curveballs in games … a drop-curve and a rise-curve.

The two instructors Bill mentioned in his post both advocate a curveball.

But hey, if you are going to knock a curveball, or screwball, claim that they are flat-lined pitches … and then attack it as a flat-lined pitch … and to make things a bit more interesting, then go on to describe a “tricky pitch” that basically attempts to come off as a flat-lined pitch.

I’m out of this discussion. Like JJs, I have to head to the ball park. Wish everyone the best in reaching their conclusion as to the merits of curveballs & screwballs.

 

[mothgirl]

BM caught on to Bill’s strawman-like arguments. They seemed obvious to me. What brought the strawman-like argument to a highlight for me was the mention of Mike White. Why is that? I know from first-hand experience that Mike White throws a curveball. I’ve personally caught Mike’s curveball. I’ve personally seen Mike instruct how to throw a curveball.

Bill also mentioned Rick Pauly. I worked with a pitcher that later pitched for Rick. I spoke with her this morning. She tells me that Rick taught a curveball and that Rick would have her throw two types of curveballs in games … a DROP CURVE AND RISE CURVE..

The two instructors Bill mentioned in his post both advocate a curveball.

But hey, if you are going to knock a curveball, or screwball, claim that they are flat-lined pitches … and then attack it as a flat-lined pitch … and to make things a bit more interesting, then go on to describe a “tricky pitch” that basically attempts to come off as a flat-lined pitch.

.

I think bill's point was that he didn't see the value in throwing a pitch that only moved in the same plane as the bat, like a curve or a screw. Drop curve and Rise curve would move on both planes. I think he was also saying why make it more complicated then it has to be, if you can get batters out with great command of a rise and drop, why add the curve because it might just be making it more difficult for yourself? I think it makes lots of sense and in sure some will agree and some won't. If my dd has a great curve And she can locate it, then great! It's also good to know that you can be very successful without a curve at all! As for other PCs teaching curves, I'm sure we all know very well that every PC is different and has their own opinions. I for one come here daily to read those differing opinions. I hope that they keep posting them and don't get turned off by getting their posts picked apart.


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[Greenmonsters]

Mental masturbation now requires a video?

Apparently the hitting forums currently offer insufficient stimulation

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think bill's point was that he didn't see the value in throwing a pitch that only moved in the same plane as the bat, like a curve or a screw. Drop curve and Rise curve would move on both planes. I think he was also saying why make it more complicated then it has to be, if you can get batters out with great command of a rise and drop, why add the curve because it might just be making it more difficult for yourself? I think it makes lots of sense and in sure some will agree and some won't. If my dd has a great curve And she can locate it, then great! It's also good to know that you can be very successful without a curve at all! As for other PCs teaching curves, I'm sure we all know very well that every PC is different and has their own opinions. I for one come here daily to read those differing opinions. I hope that they keep posting them and don't get turned off by getting their posts picked apart.


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Mothgirl, what do you believe Bill meant when he wrote the following? .... "Crop" is a load of crap.

"Crop" is not a term I use ... so perhaps I have this incorrect. Isn't a "crop" considered a "drop curve"?

 

[mothgirl]

I think he meant pretty much the same thing I wrote the first time, that if you've got a drop ball you can locate with great accuracy why over complicate it by trying to make your drop ball curve why not just work on being really accurate with your placement. I'm guessing he also might have meant that few pitchers that he's seen have a drop curve, it usually drops or curves.


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[FiveFrameSwing]

I think he meant pretty much the same thing I wrote the first time, that if you've got a drop ball you can locate with great accuracy why over complicate it by trying to make your drop ball curve why not just work on being really accurate with your placement. I'm guessing he also might have meant that few pitchers that he's seen have a drop curve, it usually drops or curves.


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As I responded earlier in this thread, I'm all in favor of mastering a few pitches ... as opposed to having several pitches that you haven't mastered. It's a common problem ... pitchers having several pitches, and not having mastered any of them. Bill is right to be frustrated by that. It frustrates me too.

That said ... let's say that you are teaching someone a 'drop-ball' ... but they naturally throw it such that it moves horizontally. It's not an uncommon event. The question is, do you nurture it or stifle it? Do you target that as the pitcher's drop-ball? Do you instead make the pitcher work to remove the horizontal movement from their drop-ball?

Multiple people on this message board credit Bill for learning how to teach/throw a "cutter". Should the "cutter" be lumped in with the "crop" as "crap"? If not, why is the "cutter" a good pitch to master but not the "crop"? If so, why call the "crop" "crap", but teach a "cutter"?

 

[Comp]

Fastest way to get on the bad side of an umpire, tell them before the game has even started what they need to be watching for. NOT a good idea.