In a mood, I can't take it anymore... and it started with backdoor curve.

[Sparky Guy]

Bill,

I have to agree with pretty much everything you just posted. I'm going to pick a few nuggets from it and interject my opinions of why. These are just my opinions from what I've experienced as a coach over the last few years. Others experiences may vary.

I'm not going to get cute and try to be fancy so I can say I have 8 pitches. NO YOU DON'T..

The blame for this is two-fold. I believe much of it is fueled by the parents. They want to thump their chest over the success of their DD's. And the only way to be better than the rest of the other girls is to throw 8 different pitches. Now comes the 2nd part of it. A parent will come to a PC and say my DD has X number of pitches. What is the next one you're going to teach her? The upfront PC's will fall on your side of the fence about it. Those who are afraid the parent will take the student to another PC who will "teach" them another pitch will do what the parent wants rather than risk losing the revenue.

There is a guy in my area who teaches all kinds of nonsense.

Here is why "curveballs and screwballs" seem effective at the young ages... because kids are scared of the ball and don't swing.

Something has happened in softball over the last few years on the girls side of it. In 2008 the NCAA reduced the size of the strikezone. At the top and bottom of the zone the entire ball must be in the strike zone. This effectively shrunk the zone by two ball widths. My DD was a riseball pitcher. Her last season was 2008. After the college hitters figured out to leave anything high in the zone alone, forcing the pitchers to throw into the hitters strengths, she had to move to her screwball more. She had a great curve that she used just enough to keep the hitters off balance. It worked for her that season.

I've been coaching 10's - 14's for the last 13 years. What I've been seeing over the last 5 years is the NCAA strikezone working its way into the lower levels of girls fastpitch umpires. I see fewer and fewer umpires calling pitches at the knees or letters for strikes. It's forcing the pitchers to use more east-west pitches.

Success at 12 yrs old doesn't mean success at 16...

As a coach THE most difficult parents to deal with are 12U parents. They've been around long enough to think they know something, but not long enough to realize just how much they don't know.

Wanna throw a curve? Learn a rise first. If you can spin a ball backward necessary for the rise

Not enough parents and coaches have the patience for a pitcher to master it and use it with confidence. So they give up on it when the girls are still young.

and in addition to that regression in progress often comes with injury, sore arm, and getting hammered by good teams. Sorry, I just can't imagine a 15 year old ever being sore in mid season.

I can only speak for my area. There is a shortage of quality pitchers in travel and high school. The HS coaches are pitching one girl almost every inning and some are having them throw BP at practice without giving them time to rest. The same is happening in travel ball as well. As soon as one of the other pitchers is in trouble the top girls are being thrown into the games. Lots of overuse issues. One of the HS girls I'm working with suffered through a bad HS coach and is just now starting to get back to 100%.

I know my DD never had shoulder, arm or back issues. But I always made sure she had days off and took time off in the off season.



Please stop in more often with more non-PC postings.

SG

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

It was the right move and wasn't contributing to this thread (and really wasn't that important). FWIW, very good perspective offered in this thread by Hillhouse, the only thing I take exception to is the concept that there is a "natural" bat path.

Bill's assessment as to why ... "curveballs and screwballs" seem effective at the young ages... because kids are scared of the ball and don't swing" misses the point that they are effective at the higher levels as well, including at the WCWS and for players that do not exhibit a fear of being hit. I offered a technical explanation as to why such pitches are effective.

 

[WARRIORMIKE]

I was going to start a thread. Titled " drop, change, and rise."



Why are these three pitches you only go with. Please explain the science behind it .

 

[BoardMember]

No knock on Bills opinion, but when he opened his curveball rant with "why would anyone want to throw a pitch over the plate" it struck me as a strawman argument. Arguing against a pitch designed not to be thrown over the plate by saying it is a pitch thrown over the plate. Who the hell ever said anything about throwing any pitch "over the plate". Including curveball.

Here's my 2 cents on the subject, backed up by experience. Let me preface this by saying that the very best hitters in the world are not "pull hitters". They are "extension" hitters. Crystal Bustos and Stacy Nuevman included. That isn't to say the very best hitters can't pull the ball, because they can and do with relative ease. But what makes them great is their ability to get extended and make solid contact.

My DD pitched against Neuvman more then once. In fact, Neuvman broke her own personal and school HR record at UCLA off of my DD. My DD told me there was only one pitch she could throw with any success against her. That was outside curveball. A ball that started on the outside corner and ended off the plate. Sometimes way off the plate. Because extension hitters LOVE pitches that they can extend on.

Throw a rise that doesn't rise enough. GONE. Throw a drop that is slightly up in the zone inside or outside. GONE. Throw a change and their hands are so quick they can wait. GONE. By the same token, throw a curve that doesn't move. GONE.

But unlike rise or drop, Outside curveball with movement is the only pitch that does NOT end up being thrown over some part of the plate when thrown properly, and that you may get an attempt on because it starts on a corner as enticement. Drop and rise thrown on a corner STAYS on the corner. Within reach of the barrel of a great hitter. And anytime you throw a pitch that stays within reach of the barrel of a great hitter you are taking your chances.

Fastpitch Curveball when properly thrown is the ONLY PITCH designed NOT to "stay on the plate". You can take that to the bank.

Stepping down now. No knock on your opinions Bill. But my experience tells me that a properly executed curve is just as effective as any of the so called "staples" of a good pitcher.

 

[Nunthia1914]

After reading you intro there was no way I was not going to read it slowly, word for word and savor it.

Thank you for a great post!

after reading the above article this is what I have to say. I am and advanced level 5 pitching coach taught and certified by Dave Pierce of Saskatchewan Ca. who is retired now but who was at one the considered the top pitching coach in the world. He has coached the Canadian team to two Gold and one silver in the Pan Am games back in the 80's. He was a great pitcher that had the best rise, drop and control that I have ever seen when I saw him pitch back in 1993 in the junior Gold tournament in Wisconsin then the following year he took that team and won the Canadian Gold.
From Pierce, Eddie Feigner, Fireball Warren are the main pitchers I learned from. I still teach the rise, drop, change, curve, screw, cutter that they taught me and as a result of their help over 150 girls that I taught those pitches to went on to play college ball over my 26 years of coaching. I still got all the autographed books that Feigner gave me. I teach and throw the knuckle up rise, peel drop, fast screw, knuckle up curve, and many types of change up and off speed pitches. I am very appreciative and thankful for those guys helping me out so I can transfer what they taught me to my students.

 

[Nunthia1914]

No knock on Bills opinion, but when he opened his curveball rant with "why would anyone want to throw a pitch over the plate" it struck me as a strawman argument. Arguing against a pitch designed not to be thrown over the plate by saying it is a pitch thrown over the plate. Who the hell ever said anything about throwing any pitch "over the plate". Including curveball.

Here's my 2 cents on the subject, backed up by experience. Let me preface this by saying that the very best hitters in the world are not "pull hitters". They are "extension" hitters. Crystal Bustos and Stacy Nuevman included. That isn't to say the very best hitters can't pull the ball, because they can and do with relative ease. But what makes them great is their ability to get extended and make solid contact.

My DD pitched against Neuvman more then once. In fact, Neuvman broke her own personal and school HR record at UCLA off of my DD. My DD told me there was only one pitch she could throw with any success against her. That was outside curveball. A ball that started on the outside corner and ended off the plate. Sometimes way off the plate. Because extension hitters LOVE pitches that they can extend on.

Throw a rise that doesn't rise enough. GONE. Throw a drop that is slightly up in the zone inside or outside. GONE. Throw a change and their hands are so quick they can wait. GONE. By the same token, throw a curve that doesn't move. GONE.

But unlike rise or drop, Outside curveball with movement is the only pitch that does NOT end up being thrown over some part of the plate when thrown properly, and that you may get an attempt on because it starts on a corner as enticement. Drop and rise thrown on a corner STAYS on the corner. Within reach of the barrel of a great hitter. And anytime you throw a pitch that stays within reach of the barrel of a great hitter you are taking your chances.

Fastpitch Curveball when properly thrown is the ONLY PITCH designed NOT to "stay on the plate". You can take that to the bank.

Stepping down now. No knock on your opinions Bill. But my experience tells me that a properly executed curve is just as effective as any of the so called "staples" of a good pitcher.

Your opinion is worth more than 2 cents. Oesterman throw a back door curve that went across the plate for a strike. Think about this. What does a pitcher need to do?
1st pitch throw a strike with something on it 2nd pitch stay ahead of the count, etc. Everyone has their own opinion about how to pitch or what pitches to throw but in the end these are girls not guys so curve balls and screw balls that are throw well really work.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

BM ... you explained that the best hitters are not "pull hitters" ... and you didn't buy into the silliness of not having a curveball/screwball ... I'll laugh if your post is relocated as well.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Your opinion is worth more than 2 cents. Oesterman throw a back door curve that went across the plate for a strike. Think about this. What does a pitcher need to do?
1st pitch throw a strike with something on it 2nd pitch stay ahead of the count, etc. Everyone has their own opinion about how to pitch or what pitches to throw but in the end these are girls not guys so curve balls and screw balls that are throw well really work.

Good point.

Think of it from a batter's perspective.

A lefty pitcher throwing a curve-ball to a righty batter.

The inside curve will have the batter thinking "yes, yes, oh crap it's a no". The outside curve will have the batter thinking "Yes, no, oh fudge it's a yes".

Same pitch, thrown to a different edge of the plate, having a completely different effect on the batter.

As a teammate ... you've got to love having a lefty pitcher with good control of their curveball. As a batter ... not so much love to express when facing such a pitcher.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The catcher can also tap the umpire's foot when throwing a tricky pitch like a low rise which is known to fool a lot of umpires who think it's going to drop out of the zone when it stays (or comes up) into the bottom of the zone.

The low-level rise does not come up into the bottom of the zone.

I welcome video attempting to prove me incorrect on this point.

 

[JJsqueeze]

The low-level rise does not come up into the bottom of the zone.

I welcome video attempting to prove me incorrect on this point.

You could read that sentence as Bill just describing the rise in both ways (doesn't fall as much OR rises) to accommodate both viewpoints and avoid someone focusing on the language of his example (not the actual intended point about the catcher's role in managing the PU) and turning this into a does a riseball rise thread.