The magical riseball story.

[JJsqueeze]

It will slow up the rise on the ball, but not stop it immediately from rising. Think about it. It is not that difficult.

slowing down a rise=starting a drop
slowing down a forward motion=deceleration

both are a force in the opposite direction of motion and will eventually cause a reversal of direction if continually applied.
the trick here is that you are dealing with a derivative (rate of change) of a quantity (rise or velocity) and not the actual quantity itself (rise/velocity). the derivative goes negative (drops/slows down) before the vector of the quantity goes negative.

you must have been a business major and taken that "pretty people" physics. Us true geeks took the hard stuff.

 

[sluggers]

CoachFP--

In our first discussion about this, we found that you had to define "rise" and "drop". Otherwise, you end up with people arguing past each other.

Within the context of this discussion, "rise" means "go above its initial trajectory". So, a human cannot throw a regulation softball that rises above its initial trajectory. If there were a 50 MPH headwind, maybe it could be done.

According to the NASA simulator, a ball thrown at more than 100 MPH with more than 30 RPS and perfect backspin will not "rise".

As I've said before, I have caught a good riseball, and it is a great pitch. I couldn't hit one.

 

[eastcoast]

According to the NASA simulator, a ball thrown at more than 100 MPH with more than 30 RPS and perfect backspin will not "rise".

Wow slugger, While ago you are the one dismissing NASA simulator as inaccurate , stating "you have spoken to NASA researcher" and simulator is not accurate with there is no definitive science formula to get accurate trajectory based on magnus effect. Now you are happy to use simulator to support your theory when applicable. While I do respect your opinion, please dont be subjective. Subjectivity will not help any one and often leads to biased opinions. Why don't we ask top pro/college catchers who caught top rise ball pitchers if they have seen rise ball moving upwards . That might give more facts than people who discuss about this subject in fact never thrown one or caught on from notable rise ball pitcher.

 

[Rocketech1]

The ball does not begin to "drop" as soon as it leaves the hand. I took college physics and am by no means an expert. But gravity's pull on the ball does not mean it is dropping. The ball is deaccelerating, meaning it is not going up as fast as when it left the hand but deaccelerating does not mean dropping. You can be driving at 100mph and put on the brakes but still be moving in a certain direction until you eventually stop. Look at gravity as analogous to the brake. It will slow up the rise on the ball, but not stop it immediately from rising. Think about it. It is not that difficult.

Maybe this will help you understand that a rise ball does "rise" above its initial plane of trajectory:

If you draw a straight line from the pitchers hand at release, to a target a foot above the catchers head and throw a rise ball to that target, the rise ball will arrive at its target somewhere just below the target (i.e. it has dropped off below the straight line). If you threw another pitch but this time it was a four-seam fastball to the same target, the ball would end up even farther below where the rise ball did. Both pitches ended up at the same distance from the release point and both pitches ended up higher up off the ground than the release point but that doesn't mean that these pitches are "rising".

Those that argue that riseballs "rise" think that the ball will arc upwards and end up ABOVE the target and ABOVE the straight line in my example. That my friend cannot be done because humans cannot throw the ball with enough velocity and spin rate to overcome gravity and the drag on the ball.

Is it an effective pitch? Of course it is and that is why pitching instructors teach it because all things being equal, a softball with tight backspin (riseball) will not drop as quickly as a softball with topspin (fastball) thereby fooling the batter to swing under the riseball pitch as it reaches the plate.

Is this not that difficult to understand

 

[Out in Left Field]

Most people use a straight line to go from; it would extend, perhaps from waist of the pitcher to the catchers armpits. Assuming that the pitch is not a mistake, if the pitch ends up below, it dropped, and if it ends up above, it rose (even if it has to come down at some point or does a little). If I pitch a ball from my thigh to the catchers chin, spin or not, that has risen, whether it is has spin or not. Whether that is from trajectory alone or not.

Now for it to be a riseball, however, I think you are also talking about technique, so the form and spin have to be correct.

 

[sluggers]

While ago you are the one dismissing NASA simulator as inaccurate , stating "you have spoken to NASA researcher" and simulator is not accurate with there is no definitive science formula to get accurate trajectory based on magnus effect.

No, that is not what I said.

What I said was that the formulas that work (which they use in the simulator) do not match up with various explanation as to "why" the Magnus Force occurs.

Why don't we ask top pro/college catchers who caught top rise ball pitchers if they have seen rise ball moving upwards

I was catching the pitching coach for DePaul U. She had a nasty rise. It looks like it moves upward. It doesn't.

 

[halskinner]

Quite a few years ago I was asked to come up into the gold country to work with a pitching coach's daughter, 14yo if I remember. He caught for her. At one point he asked me to throw him a riseball as he had never seen one. I threw him a bent fingered rise. It broke late, hopped up over the top of his glove. I had ducked under it too much and turned into into an 'up and in'. He missed it completely and it hit him in the collar bone near his left shoulder. He fell off his bucket onto the ground, thought I had broke that bone. That was the last time I ever threw anything fast to anyone without a chest protector and a mask. If it had not turned into the up and in, it would have hit him in the throat or mouth.

I had a 19yo pitcher from Australia fly in one year. She was going to college in the US. She arrived with her dad who said he would catch for her and had been her catcher since she started at 12yo. He wasnt real tall but a strong looking fellow with grey hair. I offered him a mask, he said not needed. I showed her the bent fingered riseball and about the 5th or 6th try, it worked for her. It hopped up late, cleared his glove and nailed him in the middle of his chest. He jumped up quickly, we ran to him and he just stood there looking at us. I asked him if he was OK and he said "Yeah. Damn! I've been catchiung her and other pitchers back in Australia for 10 years and I've NEVER seen a ball come up like that before!". I then took over the catching duties.

Just because you have never seen one that came up, doesnt mean they cant be made to. I dont care about NASA or about what the physics book say.

 

[CoachFP]

CoachFP--

In our first discussion about this, we found that you had to define "rise" and "drop". Otherwise, you end up with people arguing past each other.

Within the context of this discussion, "rise" means "go above its initial trajectory". So, a human cannot throw a regulation softball that rises above its initial trajectory. If there were a 50 MPH headwind, maybe it could be done.

According to the NASA simulator, a ball thrown at more than 100 MPH with more than 30 RPS and perfect backspin will not "rise".

As I've said before, I have caught a good riseball, and it is a great pitch. I couldn't hit one.

Ray, below is the definition of rise. Yours is made up. Mine is from the dictionary.

rise

/rīz/



Verb


Move from a lower position to a higher one.



Noun


An upward movement; an instance of becoming higher: "the bird has a display flight of steep flapping rises".



Synonyms


verb. arise - get up - ascend - go up - stand up

noun. rising - ascent - increase - elevation

A riseball goes up and not down. I can't believe that this concept has some of you people baffled.

 

[JJsqueeze]

I don't care what physics says? Dammit....the Earth is still the center of the universe! Get more leeches so we can bleed the patient to get rid of his bad humours! Hal, I have no doubt that you broke some collar bones in your day, but just because a couple of bucket trolls couldn't catch a pitch doesn't mean it rises with an upward break. Seriously, if this upwards breaking riseball exists there would be video of it, but all of the video of riseballs shows this doesn't happen. I want this pitch to exist badly and would love to see the video that proves it does. With all of the debate I am sure many people have tried it and seen that it does not break. Just one video of a softball breaking upwards ends this once and for all.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Ray, below is the definition of rise. Yours is made up. Mine is from the dictionary.

rise

/rīz/



Verb


Move from a lower position to a higher one.



Noun


An upward movement; an instance of becoming higher: "the bird has a display flight of steep flapping rises".



Synonyms


verb. arise - get up - ascend - go up - stand up

noun. rising - ascent - increase - elevation

A riseball goes up and not down. I can't believe that this concept has some of you people baffled.

No one is baffled-the concept of rise is being changed with each post. if we take your definition then a high fastball over the catcher is a riseball so let's throw it way shall we? The "rise" everyone else is discussing is an upwards breaking arc, or hell even a straight line with absolutely no downward change in trajectory during the pitch.