11yo Swing

[batdragon]

...I believe she is missing out to what some may discribe as a scap pinching...some back muscle resistance/pull...some hip resistance along with the barrel turn to get the rear leg pulling and whipping the barrel around the corner.

RHC, excellent observation.

I actually have changed my approach in regards to scap pinch, but perhaps I am wrong.

So this question is for anyone. I am curious to hear your thoughts.

What causes the scap pinch ?
A) The scap muscles contract and pull back and create resistance in the scap "manually".
B) The loading into the rear hip rolls up the kinetic chain in a whip like flowing fashion and creates a scap pinch "dynamically".
C) All of the above ?
D) Other


Thx,
Batdragon

 

[Rocketech1]

12-26 BP SloMo
[video=youtube_share;tDBTRKjUxQ0]http://youtu.be/tDBTRKjUxQ0?list=UUCwPIa8IB-dzDF6PJR_1VXg[/video]

Please let me know what you think.

Thx,
Batdragon

In general, she has a very nice swing.

What size bat does she use? Seems very big for her age and size. Also to the experts, would be curious to know how successful 12u batters have been using the "tip it and rip it" mechanics. 11yo hitters don't have the upper body strength that MLB players have and I have always wondered that this may be an advanced move that should be utilized when the girls are a little older and stronger in their upper body to be able to adjust from the barrel going near vertical to slightly sideways into the point of contact when faced against good pitching.

 

[batdragon]

In general, she has a very nice swing.
What size bat does she use? Seems very big for her age and size.

31/21 bat size.
She is about 5ft tall & 95 pounds.
Pretty average size for her age.

 

[Rocketech1]

31/21 bat size.
She is about 5ft tall & 95 pounds.
Pretty average size for her age.

Ok, that's fine. It just looks big in the video for some reason.

BTW, I like the open stance setup. My DD had a bad habit of pulling her front foot away from home plate during the stride, so last weekend we switched her to an open stance and she took to it very well.

 

[Perfect Circle]

 

[chrispots]

RHCI actually have changed my approach in regards to scap pinch, but perhaps I am wrong.

So this question is for anyone. I am curious to hear your thoughts.

What causes the scap pinch ?
A) The scap muscles contract and pull back and create resistance in the scap "manually".
B) The loading into the rear hip rolls up the kinetic chain in a whip like flowing fashion and creates a scap pinch "dynamically".
C) All of the above ?
D) Other

Ok...asbestos underwear on

I'd love to hear RHC's\other take on this too...I think this could be productive...

I'm talking in straight anatomical terms...meaning if "scap pinch" is defined differently on this site or on another site, please don't get hung up on esoteric terms. Just look at how the scap is connected...The scapula is connected via the most mobile joint in the body known as the glenohumerol joint...but also understand there are forces that can act on the scap other than the humerus...

Here's a fun site to play with when it comes to the shoulder Shoulder Joint

In simple terms, this pic does a good job of illustrating the connection between the humerus and the scap via the glenoid cavity



The scap is attached to the humerus at the point where the humeral head and glenoind joint\cavity. By all logic, the scap cannot "pinch" without use of the humerus moving. Even TDS' cat\cow move involves slight movements of the humerus to get the scap bone to move and recruit the back muscles although to me this scap movement feels equally driven by the spine which leads me to believe the rhomboid major and minor muscles and the levator scapula are influencing the movement of the scap.





So to answer your question, I cannot get my scap to load just by "The loading into the rear hip rolls up the kinetic chain in a whip like flowing fashion and creates a scap pinch "dynamically"." Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but if I "lock out" my spine\humerus, I cannot get scap recruitment just by coil alone...Now I can feel the upper and lower "unite" IF I use my humerus and spine to recruit my scap and it's adjacent muscles and coil into my rear...look at the proximity of these muscles and it makes "sense." (at least to me)


Put some "feel sensors" on:
If you pin your arm to your side and just coil into your rear side, do you feel your scap pinch?

Perform the cat\cow move...what do you feel?

If you keep your feet together and resist any type of coil into your hip, simply raise your elbow so that it is level with shoulder, note what you feel. Now return to that position and pull rearwards, moving your elbow closer to your spine, note what you feel. Now return to that position and raise your elbow higher than your shoulder, note what you feel. Lastly, return to that position and slightly externally rotate your forearm, note what you feel.

This illustrates external rotation of the forearm. See http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/10963-how-elbows-work.html for a good discussion on the elbows and external rotation of the forearm.


Lastly, is your DD doing what Hosmer is doing with his rear arm?

This is all meant to be constructive...I have an 11 year old too and she said "wow, she has a nice swing!"

CP

 

[batdragon]

So to answer your question, I cannot get my scap to load just by "The loading into the rear hip rolls up the kinetic chain in a whip like flowing fashion and creates a scap pinch "dynamically"." Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but if I "lock out" my spine\humerus, I cannot get scap recruitment just by coil alone...Now I can feel the upper and lower "unite" IF I use my humerus and spine to recruit my scap and it's adjacent muscles and coil into my rear...look at the proximity of these muscles and it makes "sense." (at least to me)

chrispots awesome post !!

So I feel that loading/coiling the rear hip essentially floats the upper body rearward (clockwise) and the unloading of the rear hip sequentially yanks the rearward floating "lagging" upperbody segments forward (counterclockwise) and as a result the stretch travels up the body and the scap gets pinched "dynamically". This is if timing of the unload is not too early.

If the timing of the unload is too early (ie. batter fooled on off speed pitch), then "manual" scap resistance by contracting the scap muscles may be required in order to keep the stretch.

So in regards to the scap, the weight/force of the "lagging" arms (including somewhat horizontal rear humerus) and the bat floating rearward (clockwise) while the rear hip is moving forward (counterclockwise) causes the stretch to roll up the body and create the "scap pinch" dynamically instead of manually.

So I will add a few more options.

What causes the scap pinch ?
A) The scap muscles contract and pull back and create resistance in the scap "manually".
B) The loading into the rear hip rolls up the kinetic chain in a whip like flowing fashion and creates a scap pinch "dynamically".
C) The loading and unloading of the rear hip rolls/flows up the body and dynamically creates the scap pinch.
D) Both A & B combined.
E) Both A & C combined.
F) Other

So my answer 6 months ago would have been A based on previous posts/discussions on all sites/forums, but based on what I feel when I swing, I am beginning to believe it is actually C. ...the lagging rear humerus creates the pinch.

chrispots it sounds like your answer is A ... manual contraction of scap muscles ?? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thx,
Batdragon

 

[TDS]

chrispots awesome post !!

So I feel that loading/coiling the rear hip essentially floats the upper body rearward (clockwise) and the unloading of the rear hip sequentially yanks the rearward floating "lagging" upperbody segments forward (counterclockwise) and as a result the stretch travels up the body and the scap gets pinched "dynamically". This is if timing of the unload is not too early.

If the timing of the unload is too early (ie. batter fooled on off speed pitch), then "manual" scap resistance by contracting the scap muscles may be required in order to keep the stretch.

So in regards to the scap, the weight/force of the "lagging" arms (including somewhat horizontal rear humerus) and the bat floating rearward (clockwise) while the rear hip is moving forward (counterclockwise) causes the stretch to roll up the body and create the "scap pinch" dynamically instead of manually.

So I will add a few more options.

What causes the scap pinch ?
A) The scap muscles contract and pull back and create resistance in the scap "manually".
B) The loading into the rear hip rolls up the kinetic chain in a whip like flowing fashion and creates a scap pinch "dynamically".
C) The loading and unloading of the rear hip rolls/flows up the body and dynamically creates the scap pinch.
D) Both A & B combined.
E) Both A & C combined.
F) Other

So my answer 6 months ago would have been A based on previous posts/discussions on all sites/forums, but based on what I feel when I swing, I am beginning to believe it is actually C. ...the lagging rear humerus creates the pinch.

chrispots it sounds like your answer is A ... manual contraction of scap muscles ?? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thx,
Batdragon

Batdragon, this movement pattern works but how balanced is it? Why not try leveraging both sides of the body during the sequence vs the rear hip? I would try focusing on a movement pattern that flows up and down both sides of the body at the same time vs a movement pattern that transfers energy from one side of the body to the other side during the swing. The core movement pattern if balanced will always be dynamic (no stalls, or pauses) leveraging both hips at the same time during the core pulses.

 

[RookKev]

This young lady looks very strong. The power in her swing is beyond that of an 11 yr old with her frame size. How does she do in games? I know pitching at 11's is still quite raw... it would be neat to see her match up against a 14's pitcher, with a good change-up. The best way to test an advanced swing (which she definitely has) is to test it against more developed talent. I can't wait to see her name in headlines in a few years!

 

[chrispots]

chrispots awesome post !!

So I feel that loading/coiling the rear hip essentially floats the upper body rearward (clockwise) and the unloading of the rear hip sequentially yanks the rearward floating "lagging" upperbody segments forward (counterclockwise) and as a result the stretch travels up the body and the scap gets pinched "dynamically". This is if timing of the unload is not too early.

If the timing of the unload is too early (ie. batter fooled on off speed pitch), then "manual" scap resistance by contracting the scap muscles may be required in order to keep the stretch.

So in regards to the scap, the weight/force of the "lagging" arms (including somewhat horizontal rear humerus) and the bat floating rearward (clockwise) while the rear hip is moving forward (counterclockwise) causes the stretch to roll up the body and create the "scap pinch" dynamically instead of manually.

So I will add a few more options.

What causes the scap pinch ?
A) The scap muscles contract and pull back and create resistance in the scap "manually".
B) The loading into the rear hip rolls up the kinetic chain in a whip like flowing fashion and creates a scap pinch "dynamically".
C) The loading and unloading of the rear hip rolls/flows up the body and dynamically creates the scap pinch.
D) Both A & B combined.
E) Both A & C combined.
F) Other

So my answer 6 months ago would have been A based on previous posts/discussions on all sites/forums, but based on what I feel when I swing, I am beginning to believe it is actually C. ...the lagging rear humerus creates the pinch.

chrispots it sounds like your answer is A ... manual contraction of scap muscles ?? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thx,
Batdragon

Thank you...I tried to be as clear as I could...

Something closer to this...

A) The scap muscles contract and pull back and create resistance in the scap "manually".
B) The contraction of the core and back muscles "dynamically" engage the scap.

Like TDS notes above, using the core muscles allows for use of both hips with no stalls or pauses...to me this is not only a great source of power but really adds to the adjutability of the swing...CP