Thread: How the elbows work

Originally Posted by straightleg

Big improvement. Sequence looks pretty good close. First adjustment. Create hands going back and hips going forward. A bit more space in her sequencefrom hands and back hip.

Second adjustment I would make is drop her back elbow down so both arms make the roof of a house.
See how the back elbow slots 2-5 inches before the front engauges. Elbows should work together


SL

Is that what you typically see at swing initiation ... the elbows remaining equidistant initially?

Elbows work independently. Back elbow tucks down and front elbow/forearm lifts outward away from the chest/letters.





If the front elbow moves forward towards the pitcher in response to the back elbow lowering, then the hitter is NOT flattening their hands/flattening the barrel to the swing plane in the most efficient manner. You do NOT want the hands to push towards the pitcher when the back elbow lowers. That is incredibly inefficient.

The Pujols clip shows how the arms work to set up the throw of the barrel and how the back elbow begins to extend as the hands turn the corner. Williams called this extension of the back elbow heading into contact a "HARD PUSH". An early push of the hands as the back elbow lowers is bad. A late push of the hands that naturally happens during the throw of the barrel, is good. When you throw the bat with two hands, the front hand alters the throwing motion resulting in a straight line push.

"The baseball swing is a hard push-swing. You are pushing right through the impact area, about six to eight inches
on a plane with the flight of the ball." --Ted Williams

Back elbow tucks down and front elbow/forearm lifts outward away from the chest. Notice how the front elbow has NOT moved forward towards the pitcher in response to the back elbow being lowered. The position these hitters are in is what Epstein refers to as the "Universal Launch" position. There are different ways that kids get into this position. These hitters get there using the back arm action used in the throwing motion. The advantage of doing it this way is that it allows for the hitter to get the barrel moving in a way where the barrel is circling behind them instead of moving towards the ball,; or not moving at all. This gives the hitter the advantage of getting the barrel moving prior to swing initiation; without moving their hands towards the pitcher...they get a running start so that they don't have to start their swing from a dead stop.


Babe Ruth Connection.jpg

Cochran Connection.jpg

Pujols Connection 2.jpg


Many kids will get to this position by dropping their hands straight down. This forces them to start the barrel from a dead stop when they decide to swing...Drop and Drag. Others will hold their hands up by the helmet ear hole and launch their swing from there; which means their hands are moving towards the ball as the elbow lowers. Most don't see the movement of the hands towards the ball because the shoulders are turning forward as the elbow lowers. The forward turning shoulders cover up the early push of the hands.

Originally Posted by Greenmonsters

Well - I've had a copy of TSOH for 30+ years and agree there's no substitute. There's no question that TW absolutely knew what he was doing, but some of the semantics or terminology he used in his explanations, while making perfect sense to him, may not be as intuitive or clear or make sense to others. Example: "The baseball swing is a hard push-swing..." IMO doesn't easily reconcile with the current "throwing the barrel" concept (i.e., "The Pujols clip shows how the arms work to set up the throw of the barrel") unless you have studied (not just read) TSOH AND have an in-depth understanding of the high-level BB swing. I'm just noting that not many people fall into that category.

Here is where the hard push takes place. Do you see how the pinch in the back arm releases?

pujols hard push.JPG

Hard Push jeg.JPG

When you throw a ball sidearm does your back arm extend as your hand travels towards your intended target?

Some will say that hitting isn't throwing. I guess it depends on what your goal is as a hitter. I think the goal should be to throw the barrel at the ball. That's what I see good hitters doing.



Here is Frank Robinson in super slow-motion:


Do you see how the barrel flattens behind him? The only way to flatten the barrel in the direction he's flattening it, is by external rotation of the rear upper arm. As the barrel is flattening behind him, notice how his front forearm is lifting up off his chest. You will also notice how his hands/front elbow do not travel forward until his upper torso begins to turn forward. IMO Robinson is getting his hands (really his top hand) in position to throw the barrel. Both hands are acting on the handle, but the top hand is controlling the underlying pattern.

Here is another clip of Williams. Notice how the bat shaft stays close to the deltoid as it flattens. The flattening direction is behind him. It is not in a direction that would bop the catcher on the head, which is what you get when you teach kids to turn the triangle.

Dr. Yeager does a good job here of explaining how the back arm works. The shoulder joint is a ball and socket joint and can both ADduct/ABduct (raise/lower) and Internally and Externally rotate (turn in the socket).

Originally Posted by Greenmonsters

Well - I see and understand where the "hard push" happens, but I don't like the terminology - in my mind a hard push with the hands does not equate to throwing the barrel. If I was trying to learn the HLBB swing and someone instructed me to "push my hands" when I swung, I'd likely be inclined to take it too literally, which would limit my ability to swing or release the bat that I was holding in my hands. Extending the rear arm to/through contact might be a cue that could result in encouraging the desired action for some, but "throwing the barrel" is most intuitive and useful IMO. As I've said before, TW absolutely understood what he did, but some of that gets lost when he tried to explain it for the masses.

I agree with "throwing the barrel" being the most intuitive. I haven't come across another method that is easier for kids to learn the basic pattern. I don't ever tell kids to "push" their hands towards the ball. However I do think hitting coaches need to be aware of the difference between an early push, which is bad; and the late push that Williams described. Very few hitting coaches see the early push that happens when kids work their elbows the way that some teach. They don't see it because the torso is turning at the same time and covers it up.

The pros and better D1 players don't push their hands forward when their back elbow lowers. When the hands come forward, so does the barrel. This means that the kids are unloading from the very first frame that their elbow begins to lower. Hitters like Williams and Cochran don't unload when their elbow lowers. They continue to "Load" when their back elbow lowers.

This clip of Williams shows how his hands remain back as his elbow lowers. Equally important is the direction of the barrel at the first and second pause. The barrel is pointing behind him. It is not bopping the catcher on the head. There is a very important directional component to the barrel when the back elbow lowers.