Wrist Snap

[bwalk63]

Just because Finch and Osterman say they do something may not mean that they do it. We are still saddled with some of the old time thinking in fastpitch pitching that has every girl doing the same drills which were first taught 25 years ago and everyone accepts them. One thing in particular that happens is that most female pitchers do the back arm swing. Why? It does not give you extra speed and the hitter can see the ball longer and pitches can be picked easier. But 98% of them use it. Throwing from the glove leads to more consistency in my opinion, which is based on my experience. But can tens of thousands of girl pitchers be wrong?

coach, I stated in my post that what they say they are doing may not be what they are actually doing once a video is broken down, I did say that they think about the wrist snap, and maybe that is enough, I don't know. As far as the back arm swing, just because we don't like it or think it is wrong doesn't matter Finch and Osterman both do it, call them up and tell them they are wrong, it works for them, maybe if they were pitching against world class men like Hillhouse does they may get rocked, but they aren't, look at it this way, Bustos batted against both types of pitchers, those with back arm swings and those that hide it, she rocked them all. Just because you and I think they shouldn't do it has no bearing on their success or the batters success or failure against them. As the they girls move up to face better hitting they also become better at pitching, so just because a batter knows that Finch is going to pitch her a rise ball because they see her hand doesn't mean they can hit it does it? Ask all the world class hitters she has faced and struck out, since she showed the pitch they must have known it was coming but still struck out. She became great regardless of a back swing or not. I look at it this way.. in MLB the pitchers show there hand the second it drops out of their glove, so that the hand is seen all the way into the backswing, doesn't seem to matter does it. Albert still strikes out even when he knows what is coming, I see no difference and think it is a non issue. The girls will either do it or won't and they will succeed based on many other things regardless of whether they have a backswing.

 

[bwalk63]

MrGreen? would love to get your thoughts on this thread, what are your thoughts on the back arm swing, as you know who throws high 60's and also has a back armswing, also what does she say she does about wrist snap?

 

[CoachFP]

bwalk, obviously you are not a pitcher. Knowing what's coming is important and if the hitter knows it and is a good hitter it certainly helps in the at bat. If a good hitter sees the riseball in the pitchers hand they might not swing and the pitcher will be forced to throw down in the zone. She may have been great with the backswing but may have been even better without it. I saw the championship game of the WCWS last year and the score was pretty high. Maybe the hitters are catching up and the pitchers ought to think about how they can improve as well.

 

[bwalk63]

nice argument, we can agree to disagree. I think the quality of the bats also have something to do with it also. I see check swing homeruns on 16U travel ball.

 

[tmolina]

Of course it is. Until something can be proved scientifically, under real lab conditions that limit the variables to one, it's all just observation and opinion.

It's up to each of us to see what makes the most sense to him/her. The nice thing is, even if it turns out someday you were doing it wrong, you don't have to give back any of the good stuff you did in spite of it.

I realy like that....

 

[ArmWhip]

In order to clarify this a bit the term 'wrist snap' should be defined. Cat says focus on wrist snap, what exactly does she mean by wrist snap? She never really says. For me the wrist snap is cocking back the wrist and firing it forward. It must be cocked back in order to be snapped, no cocking, no snapping, try to snap your wrist without cocking it back and what do you get, a weak little finger flip. If someone has a different definition of what a wrist snap is we need to hear it.


Here is an experiment that everyone can do for themselves that will show that snapping your wrist when delivering a pitch doesn't work.

It's simple, do some wrist snaps yourself; point your forearm at the ground, cock your wrist back and snap the ball forward. Make full, complete, powerful wrist snaps. Now as you are doing this notice the trajectory of the ball after the release, as it travels away from you, extrapolate or extend that trajectory out but imagine that it is augmented with the speed of the arm circle. Where is ball going, it's headed well over the catchers head, maybe even over the backstop. You cannot add a wrist snap at the bottom of the arm circle without it resulting in a ridiculously high pitch. If you want to bring the trajectory down you must release the ball out of the snapping motion before you get to the bottom of the arm circle, or you must attenuate the snap itself but that defeats the purpose of having a wrist snap in the first place.

 

[cyfairslam]

Just because Finch and Osterman say they do something may not mean that they do it. We are still saddled with some of the old time thinking in fastpitch pitching that has every girl doing the same drills which were first taught 25 years ago and everyone accepts them. QUOTE]

Interesting to say the least.

First of all, I agree the isolated wrist snap drill (no arm drop at all)is not that useful. I always thought kids did that at a late age to get their wrist warmed up before moving on to a more full pitch. At a young age it might be a little useful when first learning the correct hand position and snap for the movement pitches. However, the drill I described I feel is quite useful and is considered a wrist snap drill and is why I started the thread to begin with. It is consistent with IR, release point, arm whip, loose arm and wrist, wrist snap and feathering the fingers, close to optimal body and shoulders release position that most here considered the correct way to throw. Good to promote and teach spins to a youth and good for a more experienced pitcher to maintain a feel and warm up.

What I see across the country is a lack of proper instruction in making the ball spin. A great number of coaches across the country are ex self taught mens pitchers who never pitched in leagues much better than equivalent YMCA pick up basketball leagues or girls that never could make the ball move. I agree with what Bill Hillhouse advocates here as the optimal mechanics and that they are fundamentals and not styles. However there is no consensus on how to get a youth pitcher from point A to the optimal mechanics.

From what I am gathering is that the coaches here don't tell a kid to snap their wrist but just tell them to whip their arm with a loose wrist and get their hand in the correct position at release and use your fingers to spin the ball at the precise moment. (It is too difficult to snap your wrist at the precise time :<)) I have not seen many of the coaches present how they get their youth pitchers to develop the mechanics, timing and feel required to put the correct spin on the ball and fast enough to actually make it move. Look how many responses I have gotten when I challenge the original post that stated you should not stress the wrist snap and how many of them have been useful drills in increasing the spin on the softball? I guess you just work on getting looser arm whip, mechanics and timing and that should do the trick. Might work for a cheap screw ball but not much else. In my opinion that is just one step better than saying just do it, that will be $30.

The other theme, not so dramatic, it that a few here think that snapping the wrist is detrimental in developing IR or you can't snap your wrist with IR and at least one thinks IR is something that a young pitcher develops on their own and is not readily teachable. I don't agree.

Cat, Fernandez, Finch, Smith among others all state they have a conscious loose wrist snap. I can think of at least four acclaimed
top pitching coaches (men) in the country that I know do the same. I only say this because I did not want people reading this board to believe the original post I referenced in my reponse was considered correct without some debate. They can read this thread and at least keep an open mind.

 

[bwalk63]

I had a discussion last night with my daughter about this. Without leading her in any way I wanted to find out what she thinks - or "feels". She said she thinks of it as a "whip snap" we have never done drill too much, but the one we always do is what Hillhouse talks about in his video, from the "K" postion working on whip. So to my DD it is not her thinking wrist snap at all but "whip snap". She does say she thinks of it as loose but powerful.

 

[cyfairslam]

Regarding spinning the ball, you do use the K drill and you can use the ball on a stick for reps. You can spin the ball to yourself or spin it to the catcher. I also recommend light weightlifting for the wrist and forearm, much like you would do in physical therapy for carpal tunnel. Also several people have mentioned throwing a football underhand. Etc. Never mind that you simply throw the pitch until you get it; why is that not enough?

Like the K drill .
Ball on a stick, spin to yourself .....Isn't that like the isolated wrist snap? You might get roasted here.
Wrist and forearm strength is good ....flexibility, coordination and timing probably more advantageous
Throwing a football underhand is not that great to me.
Just do it ......works for some I guess. Before long there will be a Kinect Xbox 360 game to teach pitching


Spinning does not occur in a moment like a wrist snap; it takes from the back hip to the front hip or longer.

Back to the front hip......don't agree with that.

That is why it is easier; you are actually interacting with the ball more and for a longer time while at the "wrist." It is not a wrist snap however. Girls that can do great wrist snaps often can NOT spin the ball. They are two different things.

I advocate snapping the wrist while using the fingers to feather the ball amplifying the spin. I believe you get more spin by snapping the wrist. Use of the fingers is a given.



What we are saying is that cocking the wrist back and forward or consciously wasting time on it really doesn't do much, especially considering that the fastball is gone by junior year in high school as a major pitch.

So you are saying you would only snap your wrist on a fastball????

Interesting thread to say the least. It is obvious not everyone shares the same definition or perspective for the same terms.

 

[EP Dad]

Interesting thread to say the least. It is obvious not everyone shares the same definition or perspective for the same terms.

It got me to ask a lot of questions of my DD pitching coach and now I understand what folks are talking about. I finally understand the IR term, and what people are saying about wrist snap in this thread, and arm whip, etc. People on the board seem to have differing opinions about the fastball too (a chasm of difference in some cases).

I have my own opinions now about things based on what people are saying here and what my DD coach has said. I'm not smart enough about pitching though to convey those so I'll keep reading.