Wrist Snap

[CoachFP]

I really like this debate. I obviously like the fact that people share the same opinion as me. But it is fascinating to me that what is being said by those who agree with me is counter to what 98% of the pitching coaches and pitchers are doing. Every college team I come across in my coaching has their pitchers do this wrist flip stuff. Now I do believe in strengthening the wrist and hand just like I think conditioning other parts of the body is important. But that flipping drill does nothing and is based on an ill conceived notion of the pitching mechanics.

 

[starsnuffer]

It's an arm whip. Just like a real whip, every part of the arm is involved, including the wrist and fingers. I don't think anyone denies that the wrist "does something" in the course of the pitch.

The disagreement seems to come with the need to isolate the wrist by itself into a linear "flapping motion"

I'm of the opinion that this "wrist flap" has no real effect unless the pitcher releases with an "elbow back" bowling motion, in which case there are other mechanical issues that need to be addressed. I think most PC's teach this only because it's how they were taught and are simply parroting instead of thinking.

-W

 

[cyfairslam]

I have to disagree

I can't believe that any competent pitching coach would believe the wrist snap drill performed by turning sideways to the catcher, arm vertical, just let the arm drop, lead with the elbow , elbaow behind the hip, and snapping the wrist at the hip (around toward belly button) to produce rise, curve, drop and bullet spins, feathering the ball with the fingers is a useless drill? (IR style) No benefit of muscle memory, timing , feel etc??? Not a good initial training aid???? Help getting the feel of using the fingers?? Just start throwing the ball as hard as you can from some drill when you start learning these pitches???

I never said the isolating the wrist snap as described above was to increase strength or pitching speed for that matter. This is to learn how to spin the ball which I see lacking in even top 25 Div 1 pitchers. Sure the wrist is loose, but no conscious effort of any kind?

Let me understand this correctly as well, the arm whip is too fast to consciously use the wrist muscles, but all seem to agree there is a conscious effort to use the fingers at the precise time is very possible?

No other sport uses some form of drill that isolates the wrist? I know they use one in youth baseball, both pitching and basic throwing as my son and every other player on his select team were introduced to it. I am a single digit handicapper in golf and I use a drill to isolate my wrist to help me feel how to release the club. I consciously release my hands different ways on different shots to produce fades and draws. I know the topspin forehand in tennis is a conscious wrist snap and is not taught at full speed. I don't believe I am feeling just my hand accelerating through the release zone.

I guess that is why there is forums like this to express different beliefs.

 

[starsnuffer]

the wrist snap drill performed by turning sideways to the catcher, arm vertical, just let the arm drop, lead with the elbow , elbaow behind the hip, and snapping the wrist at the hip (around toward belly button) to produce rise, curve, drop and bullet spins, feathering the ball with the fingers is a

This isn't a wrist isolation drill, as the entire arm and normal release point is involved. Perhaps we're all saying the same thing but simply have a similar term for a different thing.

"Wrist snap" drills, as I know them, are basically when a pitcher does one of two things:

1) Stand sideways to the catcher with the arm down at the side, using the glove across the body to pin or isolate the pitching arm. The ball is then "flipped" towards the catcher using only the wrist (and possibly fingers). No arm motion, this is an isolated wrist motion.

2) The pitcher kneels and crooks her forarm under her knee, using the back of the knee to pin the arm and isolate it. Wrist flip the ball attempting to get the ball to go straight up and catch it with the pitching hand. This is an isolated wrist movement.

The reason I do not like these drills is because they teach to move the wrist in a motion that is never used during a normal pitch by a good pitcher. Place your hand flat on a table, palm up, now hold your forarm down and use your wrist to point your fingers towards the sky. This is the movement that the above two drills teach. You will notice this is a very weak and unnatural movement.

Fingers are used to impart spin on a ball while the wrist should be allowed to rotate internally. Place a softball on a table. Using only your wrist, try to spin it like a top, this is easiest gripping it in the palm. Now try to spin it using your fingertips to impart the spin. Which one is more effective?

-W

 

[ArmWhip]

Often you can tell the girls who have been taught to wrist snap and are actually doing what their instructor wants. They will be bent over at the waist and out on the front foot. When you try to snap your wrist hard at release you will often end up throwing the ball high, very high. These girls learn subconsciously to counteract this by bending over as a way to keep the ball down. The lucky girls are the ones who learn to armwhip on their own.

Teaching the wrist snap motion in the overhand throw is just as misguided as teaching it in the fastpitch motion. Instructors who do this are relying on myths, not facts. There are many examples in sports of players wrongly describing how they perform their sport specific motions. Sport science has debunked many of these ideas and continues to do so.

I once had an online conversation with Rick Pauley. He said that he once put a bowling glove (which effectively locks the wrist) on two of his best pitchers, these were girls who threw in the mid 60's. He said that to his surprise they only lost a 'couple of mph' and he had the feeling that if they pitched enough to get used to the feeling of the glove the speed loss would be negligible.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

I once had an online conversation with Rick Pauley. He said that he once put a bowling glove (which effectively locks the wrist) on two of his best pitchers, these were girls who threw in the mid 60's. He said that to his surprise they only lost a 'couple of mph' and he had the feeling that if they pitched enough to get used to the feeling of the glove the speed loss would be negligible.

I too am not a huge fan of isolated wrists snaps, however I do see some benefit of teaching the beginning pitchers these drills so the instructor can check the four-seam grip and the pitcher can start really feeling the ball in the hands and how the ball comes off of the fingers and finger tips, imparting 12-6 spin on the ball. Your example above talks about speed only, not feel and spin which I believe is the most important aspect of this drill. It would be an interesting experiment to have a baseball pitcher throw a fast ball and curve ball with a bowling glove on and see if there is any change in ball flight?

 

[bwalk63]

well I have to say I like this topic as well. who to listen too? who is right? who is wrong? etc... should my daughter listen to me, a coach who has never pitched, someone who posts here? the list goes on and on. How about this... why not listen to maybe one of the best female pitcher ever? I don't think anybody would disagree with that statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0mKXi0cTdI

 

[cyfairslam]

Often you can tell the girls who have been taught to wrist snap and are actually doing what their instructor wants. They will be bent over at the waist and out on the front foot. When you try to snap your wrist hard at release you will often end up throwing the ball high, very high. These girls learn subconsciously to counteract this by bending over as a way to keep the ball down. The lucky girls are the ones who learn to armwhip on their own.

You and I must be living on different planets. Absolute opposite here with the wrist snap as I described in the drill. You seem to be hung up on that when someone mentions a wrist snap they a referring to the peel drop type that includes the hand and elbow behind the ball. (Bowling for dollars as I call it) I can name two Olympians and a half a dozen college All Americans that were developed with the drill that I stated. But I know, I know, they developed in spite of their poor drills they used. Actually, I don't think bad arm circles, posture and release points is that much of a function of any wrist snap drill is how well they are coached and practice. Leave a kid alone and they all move toward the bad mechanics you described.

Teaching the wrist snap motion in the overhand throw is just as misguided as teaching it in the fastpitch motion. Instructors who do this are relying on myths, not facts. There are many examples in sports of players wrongly describing how they perform their sport specific motions. Sport science has debunked many of these ideas and continues to do so.

And of course you with your video camera have the absolute nondisputible facts that will remain constant throughout time. Tape your baseball or golf swing and have two professionals look at it and see it they see the same thing. Personally, when my son was very young and we were trying to get him to have straight backspin on his outfield throws, isolating the wrist snap gave him a good feel for how the ball should come out of his hand and fingers. Used it for the no stress curve ball as well. It was one of the tools that helped him that actually depicted what he should do when throwing. It seemed to work which I think is all that matters.

I once had an online conversation with Rick Pauley. He said that he once put a bowling glove (which effectively locks the wrist) on two of his best pitchers, these were girls who threw in the mid 60's. He said that to his surprise they only lost a 'couple of mph' and he had the feeling that if they pitched enough to get used to the feeling of the glove the speed loss would be negligible.

It has always been known that the wrist provides only 2-4 mph speed to pitches, nothing new there. Again, who has been talking about speed here. I have been talking about spin.

 

[Ken Krause]

Sounds to me like she's advocating allowing the wrist to snap as opposed to using the wrist muscles (primarily) to make it snap. She talks about keeping the arm really loose, and snapping a towel. You can't make a towel snap if you're trying to do it with the wrist alone. Standing with the arm hanging down and doing wrist flips is encouraging the pitcher to use the wrist muscles to derive speed.

But perhaps that's not what the OP is saying, and where the questions come in. The wrist is certainly needed for the curve and rise. Not needed at all for the screwball as I teach it. For the peel drop I wouldn't teach it, but for the rollover drop it definitely gets involved. But the cases where you do use the wrist are to get more spin, not more speed. And it's an add-on to other things you're doing, not the sole source.

So if you're talking purely basic mechanics/speed, no reason to do those isolate wrist flips. In fact, I'm quite sure they get in the way of development. Kids I take those away from get an easy jump in speed. For spin, it's a different story and depends on the pitch. That's my experience.

 

[ArmWhip]

In the history of womens fastpitch the vast majority of successful pitchers have been taught with emphasis on the powerful wrist snap, I have only to go back to my old Ernie Parker (the Godfather of womens fastpitch) videotapes to confirm this. In the early camps and clinics that I attended where no one understood IR I saw girls who armwhipped and girls who wrist snapped. The armwhippers probably went on to have success and the wrist snappers went on to become shortstops or outfielders or took up lacrosse. The bottom line; being taught bad mechanics cripples some girls but there are some who intuitively understand the correct way to pitch and go on to have success.