When to introduce next pitch?

[PA SB Dad]

From my limited understanding, it is more important at younger ages to develop proper mechanics, arm strength, and muscle memory - this is not something that happens in a few months, but may take a year or more. Once they have command (can throw to location for strike and non-strike), a new pitch makes sense. In 10U ball last year with my daughter, the most successful pitchers threw fastball/change, mostly fastball. The few drop-curves they saw were almost never strikes.

A new girl (11 yo) on my dd's team currently has been in lessons for 4 months and throws a fastball, change, screwball, and drop curve - none for strikes. My dd's PC says it will take another PC many more months to undo the damage that is being done now, because the (flawed) mechanics from her "screwball" or "drop curve" will inevitably bleed into her mechanics for her (flawed) fastball, and she won't get any faster or have better command until that happens.

Be patient, be glad your daughter loves to pitch, and be glad that the two of you will have some great memories when she is older.

 

[halskinner]

When her pitches went high, my 9yo would say that was her "riseball".

The funny thing was that after awhile I explained to her how it wasn't really a riseball and not to try throwing anything but strikes for now. Turns out she knew it wasn't really a riseball, she just wants to mess with the batter's (and coaches) heads so they think she knows what she's doing.

AHA! She's already utilizing the mental aspect to gain the advantage. GOOD!

Now here is what Ole Coach Hal suggests. Teach her to shake off the call to gain that very advantage.

Example; Catcher shows the sign for fastball, shake it off. Catcher then shows sign for change up, shake THAT off too. Catcher then shows sign for fastball again, she shakes her head yes and throws that fastball.

Now the batter thinks she has at least three pitches. And, that is EXACTLY what the pitcher wants to accomplish; make the batter think about something besides hitting the ball.

If you think it wont have a major affect on them, you are mistaken.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Seeking the Mental Advantage

Hal's strategy for working the mental game is absolutely on target. Make the batter pause and think rather than focus/see/react.

There's a number of other opportunities for the P and C to have fun playing mind games w/ batters. For example, let a runner on 2nd steal the catcher's sign or, better yet, if the catcher is intentionally sloppy about not hiding the sign, allow the sign to be 'stolen' by all runners on base, the 1B and 3B coaches, and even the fans in the stands. The key here is for the catcher to give just 1 sign (not a series) to communicate effectively with the pitcher about which specific pitch from the pitcher's standard 9-pitch repetoire is to be thrown. Obviously, this is most effective when the pitcher's arsenal contains only 1 pitch, because none of the signs will mean anything. This can also work w/ a 2-pitch arsenal - odds for a FB, evens for a change.

The catcher can help sell the deception by complaining to herself or the umpire loud enough for the batter to hear about how certain pitches just aren't working today, but that the screw or knuckle/drop/curve is the best that's it been all season. Another IF in on the plan can yell encouragement at the pitcher "that's the way to throw the rise" after a high pitch etc.

It can get more involved, but the idea is to make it seem that the pitcher has more pitches than she really does.

Actually, even if the P only has 1 pitch, its a good habit for the P to get used to receiving a sign from the catcher - when they're very young it confirms that the C is actually looking and ready to catch a thrown pitch and the later it becomes part of a routine that doesn't have to be altered once other pitches develop and signs become necessary.

You've probably wondered about sign logistics, but I've found that 1,2,3, 4, or 5 fingers, thumb only, fist, pinkie waggle, and OK sign (for the circle change) are the easiest set of 9 signs for the P and C to remember. Let us know if your experience differs.

GM

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

"You've probably wondered about sign logistics, but I've found that 1,2,3, 4, or 5 fingers, thumb only, fist, pinkie waggle, and OK sign (for the circle change) are the easiest set of 9 signs for the P and C to remember. Let us know if your experience differs."

GM - Thanks for the info. For us new folks can you define the 9 pitches 1 = fastball?, etc.

 

[halskinner]

QUOTE=SoCalSoftballdad;15602]"You've probably wondered about sign logistics, but I've found that 1,2,3, 4, or 5 fingers, thumb only, fist, pinkie waggle, and OK sign (for the circle change) are the easiest set of 9 signs for the P and C to remember. Let us know if your experience differs."

GM - Thanks for the info. For us new folks can you define the 9 pitches 1 = fastball?, etc.[/QUOTE]


The pitcher is actually only throwing 3 pitches, as most define them;
1. Fastball
2. Change up
3. A 3rd one, we will say drop curve.

However, she has practiced throwing those three with 3 different styles;

1. Leap and drag, forward rotation straight from the glove.
2. Double pump, back-swing and then forward rotation of a full windmill.
3. Softball submarine, back-swing and forward rotation to release point.

For the first half the game;

First signal; Pitch
Second signal; Style

Example; 2 fingers then 2 fingers again = Change up with a double pump wind up

Next; 1 finger then 1 finger again= Fastball - L&D straight out of the glove, a faster wind up then the DP (Throws the hitters timing off)

Next; 3 fingers and then 3 fingers again= Drop curve using a softball sub wind up, faster than either other wind ups and stuns the batter after seeing a double pump before.

Everyone always says, thats too much to learn! Bahooey it is! If the pitcher already throws with the double pump wind up, they will pick up the others in a heart beat because the other two are built into the double pump. They already use them and dont even know it!.

It wont take a young pitcher and catcher but a couple games to start using those tactics like pros. AND, they will have a blast outsmarting the batters.

 

[calgofo]

Plenty of ways to give pitching signals. The most common way I have seen it at the younger ages, is a series of 3-4 single finger movements that denote pitch, location and with one or more decoy signals.


Example: I want a fastball on the outside. My first signal would be a decoy, say 4 fingers held straight down. My next signal would be for the pitch, say my index finger held down meant fastball. My next signal would be location, possibly index and middle finger down, to mean outside. My next signal would be a decoy, say first and middle finger down. You can/should also mix it up from inning to inning. Say in the first inning my first signal was the decoy, second signal equals pitch, third signal is location and fourth signal is another decoy. In the second inning, I would tell my catcher that my 3rd and 4th signals would be pitch and location and the first 2 would be decoys. Quite alot of ways to mix it up. But.....obviously you will have had to work with your catchers enough for them to know what you mean.

IMO, you should also have a back-up plan in case your signals get picked. If I thought/knew my signals were getting picked, I would give it a little test. Say the batter has not caught up with my pitchers fastball in previous at bats. If the batter is down 0-2 on fastballs, I would give the signal for a change-up and then give a quick look over to the 3rd base coach to see if he flashed in a signal (or have my other coaches look) If the batter hesitated on the change, I knew they had picked me.

If I got picked and knew it or suspected it I would go with my back up. My signal to the catcher for "we've been picked" was to take my cap off and act like i was wiping the sweat off my forehead. The catcher then knew not to follow any of my finger signals but to look for the back-up. The back-up plan for me was where my clip board was located and what part of my body I touched. Example: I want a fastball outside. My clip board would be in the center between my legs, indicating fastball. I would then touch my right leg, indicating outside. I would then use the same finger signals I had been using only as opposite of the intended pitch as I could get. In the previous example I called for fastball outside with my back-up signal but I would flash in changeup with my fingers. So, hopefully the opposing coach would signal to his batter that a change up was on the way. It was always fun to watch the coach/player looking for the local and catch the express or vice-versa.

When DD was in COLLEGE the catcher called the signals. THis gal was (the catcher) pretty good sized and had a mean streak a mile wide. Since she called her own pitches, usually, the only way she got picked was from a runner on 2nd. If the catcher felt the runner was looking a little too hard at what she was calling she only used one finger......and you can guess wich one that was. The pitcher would then plant a FB into the ribs of the batter. It usually cut down on the looking.

I hope some of this made sense.

P.S I would add that it is important, regardless of the system you use, that the catcher keep looking at you throughout the ENTIRE sequence. Nothing will help the opposing team more than to have your catcher look away in the middle of your signal. Example: Say my first 2 signals were live and my last 2 were decoys, if my catcher looks away after my first 2 signals before i signal the last 2, any coach will know that the last 2 were decoys. He then only has to figure out what the first 2 mean, cutting your deception in half.

 

[redhawkridge]

SoCalSoftballdad:
If she has only been pitching for 3mos and speed is in the thirties, forget about different pitches. Take a critical look at her form, aka delivery fundamentals as per everything you can find on this forum. I doubt she has come up to 25% of reaching proper mechanics. Stay with working on making good mechanics locked into muscle memory.
A reward for hard work on the right mechanics is that they are needed to effectively develop movement pitches, once you start to work on them.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

SoCalSoftballdad:
If she has only been pitching for 3mos and speed is in the thirties, forget about different pitches. Take a critical look at her form, aka delivery fundamentals as per everything you can find on this forum. I doubt she has come up to 25% of reaching proper mechanics. Stay with working on making good mechanics locked into muscle memory.
A reward for hard work on the right mechanics is that they are needed to effectively develop movement pitches, once you start to work on them.

I would tend to agree with this. Almost everything I had read on the subject suggests that practicing proper mechanics is more important than speed, location, strikes, etc. at this point. It's funny because once you attempt to fix one problem, another one creeps in. For example, among other issues my DD (rhp) has started to drag her pivot foot to the left behind her (she didn't do it before but tended to pick up her pivot foot off the ground), instead of along and down the power line. The result is that her body is moving left too much which throws off her balance. Maybe it will be 1 -2 years before she sees a change-up grip

 

[CoachFP]

With all due respect to Mr. Skinner, why don't we see the top pitchers in the game, Osterman, Finch, Abbott, Nelson, Nemitz etc. do all of those shenanigans that he puts on here to confuse the hitter? Having nine signs, shaking off all kinds of make believe pitches, double pumping, submarining, you name it. Sounds like Eddie Feigner. They don't do it because they are good and rely on sound mechanics. Pitching is not a circus but something that requires a lot of concentration and consistent delivery and command.

 

[Bill Bollinger]

With all due respect to Mr. Skinner, why don't we see the top pitchers in the game, Osterman, Finch, Abbott, Nelson, Nemitz etc. do all of those shenanigans that he puts on here to confuse the hitter? Having nine signs, shaking off all kinds of make believe pitches, double pumping, submarining, you name it. Sounds like Eddie Feigner. They don't do it because they are good and rely on sound mechanics. Pitching is not a circus but something that requires a lot of concentration and consistent delivery and command.

There have been multiple Hall of Fame MLB Pitchers who used those type of strategies to make a good career. This would be called deception. Two that come to my mind immediately would be Luis Tiant and Juan Marichal. There are many others. IMHO, the name of the game is to get outs. How that happens does not matter.

Bill