Uppercut Swing

[Mark H]

Mark, I understand that you believe that EH's material is being misrepresented. I'm just confused why people who believe it's being misrepresented don't make a greater effort to clear things up for those of us who are interested in learning about some of the other approaches that are out there.

Because it's like trying to have a discussion in a classroom where several of the students are screaming insults and throwing erasers when the HI crew is around. Been there, done that. I would be delighted to go into it at length on Steve's website.

Something just seems really strange. A few days ago I make a general comment about some differences that I see between Ted Williams swing and SE's (one-handed) swing on his website, and I get IMO some serious over- reaction from some that are familar with his material (you not being one of them). I basically get accused of misrepresenting what and how he teaches, along with a bunch of other nutty stuff.

If it's the occassion I'm thinking of, you used some terminology, inadvertently, that sounded like the HI crew. Case of mistaken identity I suppose.

It's just really strange that the people who use his material won't provide more detail as to what he teaches. It's almost as if the people who own his material have been directed not to publically reference his material. Pretty much what I hear is "you're wrong, that's not what EH teaches, go to his website or give him a call and find out what he teaches" I've been to his website, and doing that actually raised some red flags.

If you refer to the one handed swing, yeah that really needs to be replaced. It's on the list but it never seems to get done.

What I HAVE, learned, is that my apparent understanding of the load and unload process is wrong. Wonderful, terrific, super duper...I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something. However, now I'm curious as to why I'm wrong. I really am. If there is an issue with making information available to those who haven't purchased the EH material, I understand, I'm fine with that. But would it be possible for someone who has used the PCR approach to answer a simple more general question:

PCR would be Nyman's terms for analyzing a swing-not Steve Englishbey's terms. It doesn't imply a method for getting to good Posture, Connection and Rotation yet the HI crew continues to delight in repeating PCR and saying it's awful. For a good explanation of what the HI crew believes happens in the swing, check the "Early Barrel Movement" thread on baseball fever. PM me if you want a link. Is putting the live link on here ok by policy? Boardmember and Jbooth in that thread have the approach I like which is to analyze what's happening in the swing based on reality rather than feel. Once you decide what you think the goal is in terms of what do the best in the world do, then there are any number of ways to get there. Different ways work with different kids. If we are talking about a kid who is close, a little tweak and maybe a feel based cue might be just the ticket. With a kid who is not close, I favor a building block backward chaining approach.

Would Ted Williams agree with the PCR approach to the load and unload process?

Well, actually "PCR" is Nyman's attempt to try to introduce a way to talk about what is happening within a swing as opposed to the traditional cue based terms that mean different things to different people. Certainly no one would quibble with the Posture of Ted or any other elite MLB hitter. Same with how they connect the bodies rotation to the bat or how they rotate. So, by definition, Ted had good posture, connection and rotation. Argument comes with what some see in what elite hitters do. Some see this, some see that. Some think they can play with a bat, feel something, and shazam, they know what Barry is feeling. I doubt it. So the question should really be, what is Steve's approach to the load unload or what is EpsteinMankinSlaught etc's approach to the load unload.

Given what I've seen, I like Englishbey best. Yeager's people have been saying some pretty smart stuff on baseball fever so he may be a good resource. Mankin has a lot right but I don't think his top hand torque concept is reality. Epstein I've said for a long time will get you to a certain level quickly. Now it sounds like he has made some adjustments? Good. Slaught's RightView software is a GREAT resource for a parent with the money. His swing exposition is pretty good except for that rock skipping cue IMO. EVERYONE should read the late Jim Dixon's book "The Exceptional Athlete". While it's not really reality based in terms of physics and anatomy, if you can understand what his point is about how elite athletes move, it's well worth the read. Now that's the "camp" I'm in. If you want a feel for what Steve teaches, I suggest you sign up on the free public side and post your kid's swing clip for comment. Or just read the analysis of all the youth clips already there.

 

[tom.guerry]

well -

Nyman has excellent throwing information. I would recommend his throwing ebook or getting the same information through wolforth at athleticpitcher.com/pitching central.com. Here is a summary article of Nyman's beliefs:

I think the value of his info is as a basis for understanding throwing when you use the "if you can throw, you can hit" approach.

One of the weaknesses in epstein is the lack of arm action emphasis/detail and this can be supplemented nicely with understanding how similar the loading phases of throw and swing are.

when Nyman developed his throwing theory it was initially based on the motor program theory that there were separate upper and lower body programs and a synch program:


NYMAN: In the early days of SETPRO and in my early adventures in motor learning and control the first textbook I purchased was entitled "Motor Learning and Performance, From Principles to Practice" by Richard A. Schmidt.

Schmidt was a big proponent of motor programs i.e. the use the analogy of how a computer knows how to perform its functions under the direction of a program. The program concept was very prevailent in motor learning research from the 70s through the 80s. this motor learning approach was very attractive to me because of my background being in the design of computerized motion control systems.

And in the early days of SETPRO I postulated the theory that there were two separate control programs going on one for the upper body and one for the lower body and that they cooperated with each other possibly under the supervision of a third program.

Functionally this made sense i.e. you could identify with it but later on as I did more readings in the field of motor control and learning I do not subscribe to this multi-program belief anymore.

My reason for bringing this up is to highlight the actions of the upper and lower body and when we talk about swinging the bat, the mechanism that exerts the greatest influence on the quality of the swing will be the upper body which includes the upper torso shoulders and arms hands bat.

But what often gives the greatest problem is figuring out how to create the proper sequencing of lower body to upper body........

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This motor program theory works for the MLB swing pattern as well. The primary "humerus action" in loading for throw and swing was best described by Hodge and is also used now by Yeager (and they apparently learned it from BM 25 or more years ago). In throwing, especially for young kids, it is easiest for them to learn how to get sideways and cock the hips and cock the hands then coil the body with well synched upper and lower body timing. The primary actor here is synching of back arm/humerus with front leg/femur.

Synched INternal rotation for negative move hip cock/avoiding "excessive counterrotation"

Synched ABduction for handcock/stride/"loading scaps"

Synched External rotation for winding rubberband/coil.

The similarity applies in the swing up until toe touch/drop and tilt.

The Nyman throwing theory is a "buggy whip" model where the bow-arch-bow of the spine resembles the whip handle and the layed back (externally rotated arm) is the loop connected by torso action that is described as flatbed/merrygoround/ferriswheel.

In throwing the arm and scap action is symmetric, whereas in swinging it is more alternating/asymmetric, so the focus of similarity is the back arm and scap.

In the swing, there is only bow-arch of the spine and as deicussed before, the back scap remains pinched/loaded until AFTER contact. this is UNlike throwing where the back scap is UNloaded to finish laying back the arm to be whipped.

So understanding the throwing motion allows you to know what is similar and what is different about throw and swing when you use the Slaught/Candrea/Enquist "if you can throw you can hit" apporach.

The upper body program seqeunce and synch is the same and it is easeir to learn how to load hips/hands and coil in throwing, then apply the same action to what Slaught/candrea called the "linear" preparatory part of the swing.

The unloading in the swing is VERY different and the Epstein apporach is a good way to feel the rubberbandwining and body torque and shoulder tilt and elbow spacing and forearm twist (scoop sand/get hands flat ASAP).

When you put the two together, I find it is much easier for kids when they go "hands free"/take bat off deltoid becasue they have a well synched load into toe touch and know what to do/feel at drop and tilt.


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Unfortunately, Nyman was unable to figure out how throwing and swinging related and abandoned the motor program approach and ended up with the NON =MLB pattern swing which is largely incompatible with the MLB pattern. So trying to mix the Nyman/PCRW/Englishbey/PCR approaches will not work and is a waste of time.

Nyman's throwing info is excellent and badly needed in fastpitch where throwing mechanics are inexcusably horrible.


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So if you really want to make the most of the if you can throw you can hit approach, the Nyman and Hodge info is the best foundation on the throwing side.

 

[Slapper23]

Wellphyt,

Nice post, but then you get Mark's typical, evading response. His "eraser throwing" analogy is really old - I can't tell you the number of times he's used it - but it's a lot. Mark will never give you much in the way of detail, but instead will speak in generalities, riddles, and evasion. You will learn more about the Englishbey/Nyman/PCR-based instruction from other who are familiar with the Englishbey CD, spent time on EH.com, and purchased his CD.

Another familiar refrain from Mark and other followers is "you are mis-representing what Englishbey teaches". We see this all the time, but in all reality, it does represent their teaching. And another thing, you can never be right about their system, because you will be accused of mis-representing. Of course, they never give you details.

IMO, Tom Guerry does the best job of describing the ML swing. He has studied many instructors over the years, and has come away with a superior understanding that best represents the ML swing. But alas, Tom is regularly excoriated by the Nyman/Englishbey crew because his views are such a threat to their belief system. I say this not because I am friends with Tom, which I am, but because I see (and yes, feel) what he sees. Heck, I was friends with Steve, too. But it's not about friendship, it's about content and reality. Unfortunately, some get too tied up in friendship to see the light, although there have been a number of people who have defected from Eh.com. Some of them are now at HI.com.

Again though, as you pointed out, you just have to make up your own mind, regardless of what compelling arguements I make, or Mark.

Mike

 

[jofus13]

jofus, Who is the ex-MLB'er who uses SE's stuff,I would like to speak with him!

Talk to goodson at the goodfield site, look for posts by mountainman

Goodfield baseball, that is (not softball).

Ed Goodson is his name, Hit Dr., played for about 7 years (I think) back in the 70's. I know they (Ed's son is a school coach) have had Steve in for at least one clinic.

 

[Wellphyt]

Originally posted by Mark H:
If it's the occassion I'm thinking of, you used some terminology, inadvertently, that sounded like the HI crew. Case of mistaken identity I suppose.

I've been borrowing terminology from others to keep things simple and understandable. Up until a couple of days ago I didn't realize that there were certain words associated with various factions and considered hot buttons by some.

 

[Mark H]

Not your fault. They pour the poison and sometimes it gets splattered around.

 

[tom.guerry]

well-

I like mixing terminology myself. you can always describe the details and context in a good dialog, and there is often a good reason for separate terms for what seems very similar but where different details and focus matter.

I think this is a necessary part of comparing/contrasting and reconciling different people who/experts who are describing the same pattern, but it does require applying the pattern filter, gate swing/PCR vs MLB for example.

With regard to MLB I organize terminology along these lines:

-rhythmic preswing activity (Lau SR)-setup.grip,stance,plan

-cock hips (Williams) - inward turn, negative move(Slaught), tip bat oppo(tip and rip),internal rotation of back arm and front leg(Hodge)-back leg load (Yeager),lift by pinching, establish offcenter balance (Dixon),

-cock hands (Williams) - positive move, forward by turning,carry, "V" formation(Dixon), back leg push (YEager), synched ABduction legs and arms, tip toward pitcher (tip and rip),forward momentum,tilt front shoulder down and in

-windrubberband (Epstein) - coil,synched EXternal rotation back arm and front leg, UNTIP/FLOAT (tip and rip), PLT (Mankin), internal rotation lead arm/humerus

-drop and tilt (Epstein) - tilt shoulders, single leg hitting puts front foot down (second engine/synch)-rotate triangle (elbow spread),twist forearms (back forearmsupination, POKE back elbow/scap,lead forearmpronation,lead arm lift, THT at launch(Mankin),vertical back forearm/"power V"(Mankin)

-swing - addition (slaught et al),palmup back arm extension, hitting with unbroken top hand wrist (Williams), weathervane(Epstein), BHT(Mankin),hook handpath(Nyman)

 

[Wellphyt]

I took Mark H's advice and read the Bat Barrel thread at BBF. I also spent some more time reading the public forums at EH.

I'm just going to throw out some random thoughts so as not to offend anyone.

1. I do not like the swing of the FP girl in the blue uniform. Her swing reminds me of a golf swing. My daughter is not big enough to get away with that type of swing.

2. Many ML hitters simultaneously rotate and tilt the shoulders at heel plant. Several video clips clearly showed this movement. The clips of Kent and Williams come to mind. I don't know which bones or muscles are involved, I just know that I can easily perform the movement and so can my DD and others I have worked with. This is not a complex movement that only Ted Williams can perform. It can be easily taught, and is being taught.

3. IMO a person who believes that the basic mechanics of Ted Williams' swing cannot be correctly taught and duplicated, is standing on shaky ground.

4. I've been experimenting with different approaches and when I remove the simultaneous shoulder rotation and tilt (SSRT) movement from my swing, I get less seperation, less whip and I feel like I'm swinging around the ball some. Leaving the shoulder rotation and tilt in my swing sets me up perfectly to swing through the ball. Hard to explain, but two totally different feels.

5. IMO some ML hitters use a different approach than Williams. Most ML hitters are big strong gifted athletes that can do amazing things with the bat. My DD does not fit into that category.

6. IMO THT takes place in the Williams approach. But IMO it is an involuntary movement that should not be taught or emphasized. IMO THT is really nothing new. It's just a different way of saying "get the hands flat quickly". If the term THT helps someone better understand the importance of getting the hands flat; terrific.

7. IMO all this emphasis on the hands, wrist, forearms, scaps, and shoulders will eventually turn a hitter into a hands and arms type hitter at the expense of the lower body. It might take a few months, but it will eventually happen. You see it all the time in the MLs. Jeff Francour is one that comes to mind. Last year Chipper Jones said that Francour's mechanics were about as messed up as he has ever seen. I can say first hand that it was really painful watching him hit.

 

[tom.guerry]

thanks for the comments well. you said:

"I don't know which bones or muscles are involved"

I have found for communication purposes that breaking the sequence of actions down at the joint motion/kinesiological level is most useful. these are actions that can be seen on video and in person and when you compare feel, the feel tends to be similar across people when you perform actions and think of them in thes terms which cuts down on the variability of feel when using cues.

and :

"IMO all this emphasis on the hands, wrist, forearms, scaps, and shoulders will eventually turn a hitter into a hands and arms type hitter at the expense of the lower body. "

I agree, in Epstein terms you have to "stay in the envelope" and pat attention to getting back in balance when you go too heavily into one part/aspect of the swing.

 

[CoachB25]

Wellphyt, it seems as if many are jockying for your attention. Not me. I sent you a pm. I hope you read it. Here's the bottom line. I've taught and coached for a few decades. I've had much success in both softball and baseball. Still, what I teach and believe in had to make sense to me. I found that with what SE teaches as well as the concept that PCR has to occur in the Major League swing and so, how. Then, discussion on mechanics or points of emphasis that followed made sense to me. You have to find the same thing. You seem to have found that in Ted Williams's stuff. Great! Run with it. No matter how much I type, if you ain't buying, I ain't selling.