Trickery has no place on the field??

[MTR]

Trickery like this anyways - I have never seen anything like this. My DD's team is playing (14U) and we have a runner on second. After a pitch the catcher throws back to the pitcher. Runner retreats to second. The opposing coach starts yelling "where's the ball! where's the ball!" and all the fielders start scrambling in circles. The he yells "get it in! get it in!" and everyone starts running to center field. Third base coach is telling runner to stay on the bag and she did. They stop finally and everyone is like - "What?"

I am assuming they were hoping to get a look back violation since the pitcher just stood in the circle with the ball in her glove? Hoping to get the runner off the base and confused about whether to go or not? Or, maybe just throw her out going to third? Either way I thought this was ridiculous.

To start, if you fall for that, your team deserves the out. Second, was the next pitch delivered within 20 seconds of the pitcher receiving the ball? Third, the LBR is an unnecessary rule that should be eliminated.

 

[James Smith]

To start, if you fall for that, your team deserves the out. Second, was the next pitch delivered within 20 seconds of the pitcher receiving the ball? Third, the LBR is an unnecessary rule that should be eliminated.

I was thinking about the timing of this. There are quite a few times during a game that the next pitch is not delivered within 20 seconds. P talking to the C, P talking to the dugout, it seems like the 20 seconds is pretty flexible.

As an umpire would you call the defense on this?

 

[canyonjoe]

Does anyone know the origin of the LBR. I guess after watching LL baseball it's to stop the situation where runners just take leads until the pitcher steps on the rubber, but other than that see no other point.

 

[James Smith]

Without allowing a base runner to lead off, when do they need to get back on their base. The play needs to stop at some point. LBR.

Younger ages in baseball that do not allow leadoffs have a similar rule.

 

[Cannonball]

I was wondering about the 20 seconds as well. A few years back, we had a similar play run against us. It did not work. However, the 20 second was called and, at the same time, the Umpire made a statement about verbalizing and unsportsmanlike actions by the coach. I don't recall his exact rules reference. I do know that in the state tournament a long time ago, we had a runner slide in to second and yelled. He was called out for yelling and it was deemed obstruction. Interesting thread.

 

[MTR]

Without allowing a base runner to lead off, when do they need to get back on their base. The play needs to stop at some point. LBR.

Younger ages in baseball that do not allow leadoffs have a similar rule.

It is a fallacy so many "traditionalists" lean on, that it is a "live" ball game. What a crock!

What do you think happened before the LBR came into being? Simple, when it was obvious the play was over, all the runners returned to their bases, defense prepared for the next pitch and the game moved along. I would assume that somewhere along the way this "sporting" method was thrown to the wind as what were probably considered devious individuals decided to take advantage and not return to their bases, but challenged the defense to prolong the play.

What happens in SP when the play is over? Why do they not need a circle and LBR to control that game? Is it because the alleged adults are so sportsmanlike that they just stop playing so the game can move on?

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Yes, I know the origins of the LBR. Once up on a time, the pitcher had to physically turn and look at every runner. The runner, then, had to go back to the base. If the P did not do this, you could lead off.

So, when the circle was added, the name of the rule wasn't changed.

 

[cmustangsfp]

I have seen similar versions of it on several occasions. There is even a fairly good local high school team that has employed it from time to time. Its a pretty lame play, but nothing illegal about it. If you think trickery shouldnt be allowed, should the 3rd basemen then not be able to fake a throw to 1st with a runner on 3rd trying to catch the runner off the base? Should pitchers not be able to throw curve balls, drop balls etc, after all that is attempting to trick the batter into swinging at a bad pitch?

I don't mind the "trickery" plays such as different pitches, fake bunts etc., those involve some level of skill. Acting a fool and trying to confuse people is just plain stupid. If a team has to rely on stupid tricks like that to win, your team isn't very good. That also goes for the fake "dropped third strike" play some coaches run in the younger age groups.

 

[dadonachair]

The thing I do not like about plays like this is the coach and the team had to work on it to do it in a game. I think the coach could teach the girls to be better players than try something llike this in a game. It is like the movie Mighty Ducks teaching the kids to take a dive. It is just wrong.

I have seen the hidden ball in baseball work but there you can take a lead. If you fall for the hidden ball trick than you don't know where the ball is, why take the lead?

 

[canyonjoe]

There's a difference between faking out and a trick. A fake throw is part of the play, curve is a pitch, a SS pretending they are going to catch the ball again OK. I draw the line when the coach gets involved in it.

Other deceptions that I think are OK but welcome comment. If you have an aggressive runner on third and the pitch is in the dirt, is it OK for the catcher to take a step towards the backstop to get the runner heading home?

On steal can the SS pretend the ball was overthrown and tag the runner?

I know in rec I used to kid out SS, P and C to throw over the pitcher head with R2 and R3 Because you can's steal home and have SS ask the runner to hand her the ball. I'm sure it would work, but would never actually call it.