- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
Ya no S*ht Sherlock........"Colon/Dash/Close Paranth"....
Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?
- Thread starter ArmWhip
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Ya no S*ht Sherlock........"Colon/Dash/Close Paranth"....
[clipped from wikipedia:]
The book explores a dystopian United States where many of society's wealthiest citizens refuse to pay increasingly high taxes, reject government regulations and disappear, shutting down their vital industries. The disappearances evoke the imagery of what would happen if the mythological Atlas refused to continue to hold up the sky. They are led by John Galt. Galt describes the disappearances as "stopping the motor of the world" by withdrawing the people that drive society's productivity.
[/clip]
Was just drawing a simile: if all the good contributors to this forum decide to "withdraw", I feel the awesome "IR Motor" would grind to a screetching halt.
In the book, the Galt character begins as "urban legend", where people hear scattered whispers of his existence (thus folks asking "Who is he"?) until one of the main characters is directly recruited, if I remember correctly?
it's been over 20 years since I read that one.
Sorry to cause a ruckus!
The parallel immediately dawned on me, as i saw this unfortunate situation develop...
Rubberbiscuit, I'd love to hear your take on exactly what's a rise ball and why it's the bane of hitters. BTW, I never said it was just trajectory, it's trajectory and velocity. I await your reply.
- Dec 7, 2011
- 2,368
- 38
Add velocity - same thing...
WT - I tried to pull up some archives of me going on about riseballs but it just boils down to this (long worded response):
1. I base these opinions on what I have seen as a fanatic dad of a pitcher who I will try to humbly state has an exceptional riseball.
2. What this has done to me over the years (with DD now being 18 yrs old) is I have had lots of exposure to DD’s pitches being hurled at me ALONG with many many other pitchers from her TB teams she has been aligned with.
3. Then even the club my DD has been aligned with for the last three years I have offered my catching duty to all the pitchers in the organization.
4. Then with this fanatical eye I have had the opportunity to be with my DD and her teams to all places all over the country and I spend my spare time watching other pitchers at tourneys too.
5. Yes – I am one of “those guys” that when I want to understand something I stop at almost nothing….
6. So back to the story.
7. In all the years in my small softball state I have seen two, what I would call, great riseball pitchers. YES,..only two.
8. I have seen countless pitchers throw what they call a riseball (the low to high trajectory bullet-spin pitch). Now in lesser skilled competitions these pseudo-riseballers will get the average batter to bite and miss. BUT in top-end skilled tourneys these pseudo-riseballers will get their low-to-high offerings just stared at without even the smallest twitch of a batter reaction.
9. In these highly skilled tourneys it’s where the real riseballer will shine.
10. I will personally experience this when I am catching for all the pitchers too.
11. I can almost fall asleep catching the pseudo-riseball. That ball does nothing but traject in a different manner.
12. In contrast I need to be on my toes, with caffeine in blood, to catch a real riseballer.
13. A real riseball, I submit, has a movement that is second to none. It’s almost like a knuckleball in some of the random “floating” it does getting to the mitt.
14. Then couple the fact that every Sally & Suzy batting in the world sees dropballer after dropballer (just meaning the pitch that has more of a down-break) then this makes the true riseballer even that much more effective.
15. My DD has had coaches that don’t understand or believe in the riseball (probably because, like I said above, they have had a “pseudo-riseballer” on their team before and got burnt). These coaches will get just a very good pitcher out of my DD.
16. Then there are the coaches who believe and then see the bewilderment of the batter swinging at a real riseball and DD then becomes amazing. (minority of the coaches DD has had)
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Quantitatively, I expect there's a certain speed and spin rate (proper rotational axis assumed) that differentiate where the rise is distinctively different than a high fastball. Any guesses what those magic numbers are?
Common benchmarks are 55mph and ohh 20 rps.
However, a riseballers friend is a head wind which could lower those numbers.
- Dec 7, 2011
- 2,368
- 38
Getting way off topic here - sorry OP - I will stop and open new thread if this goes farther.
I would somewhat confidently state (via no mathematics mind you) that just over 50mph a true riseball starts to become something special. (I am not a spin-rate follower - in actual quantifications - so my statement assumes a top-of-her-age-class spin rate)
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,388
- 113
Since this thread was sort of hijacked by me (sorry about that to the OP), I think I should probably add a reply to the original topic.
I am not an educated man, some would say I'm not a very smart man. As most of you know I keep pitching as simple as possible and sometimes I'm even accused of it being too simple. But, for the absolute life of me I cannot understand how anyone could think for a second that bullet spin would be faster than top spin. Here is my methodology and rationale: One of the basic core beliefs I instruct (and try to do when I pitch myself, aside from the crow hopping I ALWAYS do and the glove swim <see BM, I can be funny!>) is to have as much of a whip/snap of my elbow at the release of the ball. I believe the elbow to be one of the biggest keys to the pitch: regardless of the pitch being thrown. The sequence of snapping or whipping the elbow (whichever term you prefer) is part of the kinetic chain of movements, isn't it? Whether it's throwing overhand or underhand, the elbow, wrist and fingers snap/whip in sequence. But for bullet spin to occur, the wrist doesn't snap, it turns. This would ruin that sequence. Unless I'm misunderstanding the core question, I just don't understand how anyone could believe they could get a true sequential whip of their arm if they are having bullet spin.
I do realize that bullet spin is done by many, although I cannot fathom why. There are some coaches who apparently teach it. Again, I don't know why. If the hitter in the box doesn't have the pitcher picked (knowing what pitch is being thrown ahead of time by the pitcher giving it away somehow) the next thing a hitter looks for is the rotation of the ball. Bullet spin not only gives them a target to swing at (the dot in the ball) but it also prohibits the ball from moving up/down. Why would anyone want to throw a flat pitch? Do you have any idea how many HR's I've given up in my life on pitches that don't move? How many times I've said between innings that I just don't have it today, I cannot make the ball move? I just don't understand doing that on purpose.
But from the way bullet spin is created, the wrist has to do some form of a turn. This turn can be clockwise or counter-clockwise. Either way, you are losing the fill whipping motion needed and throwing pitches that don't move is a dangerous thing. Throwing bullet spin pitches that don't move and give the hitter a "target" seems to be a double whammy in my book. Maybe this statement doesn't carry any weight but: personally, I would NEVER do that.
Bill
I am not an educated man, some would say I'm not a very smart man. As most of you know I keep pitching as simple as possible and sometimes I'm even accused of it being too simple. But, for the absolute life of me I cannot understand how anyone could think for a second that bullet spin would be faster than top spin. Here is my methodology and rationale: One of the basic core beliefs I instruct (and try to do when I pitch myself, aside from the crow hopping I ALWAYS do and the glove swim <see BM, I can be funny!>) is to have as much of a whip/snap of my elbow at the release of the ball. I believe the elbow to be one of the biggest keys to the pitch: regardless of the pitch being thrown. The sequence of snapping or whipping the elbow (whichever term you prefer) is part of the kinetic chain of movements, isn't it? Whether it's throwing overhand or underhand, the elbow, wrist and fingers snap/whip in sequence. But for bullet spin to occur, the wrist doesn't snap, it turns. This would ruin that sequence. Unless I'm misunderstanding the core question, I just don't understand how anyone could believe they could get a true sequential whip of their arm if they are having bullet spin.
I do realize that bullet spin is done by many, although I cannot fathom why. There are some coaches who apparently teach it. Again, I don't know why. If the hitter in the box doesn't have the pitcher picked (knowing what pitch is being thrown ahead of time by the pitcher giving it away somehow) the next thing a hitter looks for is the rotation of the ball. Bullet spin not only gives them a target to swing at (the dot in the ball) but it also prohibits the ball from moving up/down. Why would anyone want to throw a flat pitch? Do you have any idea how many HR's I've given up in my life on pitches that don't move? How many times I've said between innings that I just don't have it today, I cannot make the ball move? I just don't understand doing that on purpose.
But from the way bullet spin is created, the wrist has to do some form of a turn. This turn can be clockwise or counter-clockwise. Either way, you are losing the fill whipping motion needed and throwing pitches that don't move is a dangerous thing. Throwing bullet spin pitches that don't move and give the hitter a "target" seems to be a double whammy in my book. Maybe this statement doesn't carry any weight but: personally, I would NEVER do that.
Bill
IMO, Bill H has hit the nail on the head. Why in the world would anyone teach or want to learn a bullet spin?
The description and opinion expressed below falls into the category of "there is an exception to every rule". Not every dropball is faster than a riseball but in most cases the dropball will be faster than the riseball.
Below is a pic of the most common finger orientation grip on a dropball/fastball. When released the three fingers (index, middle, ring) are directly behind the ball putting the energy directly into the center of the ball....a great transfer of energy and typically resulting in a pitchers fastest pitch.
In this next picture of a typical riseball grip and release position you will note that the fingers are not directing energy directly into the center of the ball....they are directing energy to the bottom and side of the ball......a less efficient method of transferring energy into the ball.....typically resulting in less speed but probably in a higher spin rate.
The description and opinion expressed below falls into the category of "there is an exception to every rule". Not every dropball is faster than a riseball but in most cases the dropball will be faster than the riseball.
Below is a pic of the most common finger orientation grip on a dropball/fastball. When released the three fingers (index, middle, ring) are directly behind the ball putting the energy directly into the center of the ball....a great transfer of energy and typically resulting in a pitchers fastest pitch.
In this next picture of a typical riseball grip and release position you will note that the fingers are not directing energy directly into the center of the ball....they are directing energy to the bottom and side of the ball......a less efficient method of transferring energy into the ball.....typically resulting in less speed but probably in a higher spin rate.
