Time for a reality check on IR

[cuzmail]

I think we all knew that leg drive, and mechanics were important. Posts by JS, Rick, et al have taken the specifics to another level where we can all help our DD maximize their abilities.

However, I'm not so sure that we all knew what IR was and how important it was. I know I personally did not and I also think that this is why you see so much communication on the topic of IR.

 

[JJsqueeze]

I'm pretty new and I can say that I went from being super focused on I/R to thinking about the whole motion/leg drive etc pretty quickly. But it started with my search for the proper arm motion. I am thinking that the trail I followed here is pretty well travelled by other pitching parent pilgrims. Once we arrive I think we get pretty well schooled in the overall motion. But that first question of "how do those women throw the ball so friggin fast?" is mostly answered by I/R/whip/elbow snap what ever you want to call it so it being featured prominently makes sense to me. It is also what makes this site more unique, it is not like there are a lot of people out there saying you shouldn't push hard off the rubber or have bad posture, or an off axis arm circle. But there are a lot of places out there saying to push the ball.

 

[starsnuffer]

I've said it dozens of times in the past, but I think the problem is that people here sometimes assume inccorectly that hello elbow =/= IR. Hello elbow is something pitchers do AFTER they pitch and has nothing to do with arm whip or IR movement.

While I can observe varying degrees of arm whip and internal rotation in mid-level (college) and elite pitchers, I've yet to observe one that does NOT use IR. It simply is the way humans throw a ball underhand.

Learning to maximize whip and make the movement more efficient and the plethora of threads here by BM and others have contributed is invaluable, but to say that a pitcher does or does not use these mechanics is just silly.

-W

 

[sdsoftball]

Too much IR talk? I say there isn't enough. It's the one absolute that so many PC get wrong.

When my DD was younger 10/12u we discussed it quite a bit. Now that she has it down we rarely talk about IR and we are focusing on other areas such as leg drive, hip movement and kinetic chain.

If I were teaching 8u's IR would be the one thing I would start with. It solves so many issues in the long run.

I am one of the newbies to the site (I think anyway, been reading it for over a year only started posting in the last couple of months). Last night I posted video of my daughter for the first time and got some very helpful advice about pre motion and drive mechanics. Had I posted video of my daughter 2 years ago (pre I/R) there would have been much more to say about her mechanics. The fact is, at least for her, simply making the change to I/R has increased her speed and accuracy and just in general made her feel better about her pitching ability. The reason I posted the video of her a year plus into this transition is that both her and I are now ready to move on to other aspects of her mechanics. Without I/R fixing the other problems would have helped but she never would have reached her full potential. I know that nobody is saying I/R shouldn't be taught, but I think I agree that if you are going to fix one thing I/R has to be the place to start and then move on from there.

 

[Doug Romrell]

I've said it dozens of times in the past, but I think the problem is that people here sometimes assume inccorectly that hello elbow =/= IR. Hello elbow is something pitchers do AFTER they pitch and has nothing to do with arm whip or IR movement.

I somewhat disagree. For me, true hello-elbow style has mainly to do with pushing the ball through release--palm mostly down at 9:00. Kinda like the HS "pitching experts" try to get my pitchers to do. It's the HE mindset of many ex-pitchers who are now "pitching experts" who never really understood what they themselves did when they pitched and who are about as far from being students of pitching as they could be, yet thinking "hey, I was a pitcher. I know how to teach pitching."

 

[knightsb]

I've said it dozens of times in the past, but I think the problem is that people here sometimes assume inccorectly that hello elbow =/= IR. Hello elbow is something pitchers do AFTER they pitch and has nothing to do with arm whip or IR movement.

I agree IR can occur with HE.

It is my opinion that PCs that teach/emphasize HE are also more likely to emphasize a bowling/pushing motion.

YouTube "instructional" videos like this excerpt are far more common than those that show IR mechanics.

 

[pumpkinbear]

The problem is that we are getting newbies to this forum who read some of these threads and conclude that IR is the alpha and omega of pitching. It simply isn't.

Sluggers - as a current novice (and former newbie) on this forum, I can tell you I have never seen anything on this site that elevates IR above " proper leg drive, good synchronization between the arm, the torso and the legs". It's just that most PCs generally agree on the importance of these elements.

The reason that I (and I suspect other IR fanboys) are drawn to IR discussions to what may seem to be a disproportionate level is that HE type deliveries are taught aggressively by prominent pitching coaches (including a not-too-long-ago college Player of the Year who worked with one of my dds at a clinic). Before the "Internal Rotation" thread appeared (now a Sticky - THANKS), my dd(s) were at the mercy of coaches who either didn't emphasize I/R or aggressively tried to "correct" it. And I wasn't smart enough to know better.

I agree that if anyone says that IR is the only important part of pitching, then a reality check is in order. I'm not aware that anyone here says that.

 

[Doug Romrell]

I agree IR can occur with HE.

It is my opinion that PCs that teach/emphasize HE are also more likely to emphasize a bowling/pushing motion.

YouTube "instructional" videos like this excerpt are far more common than those that show IR mechanics.

Yup! That's how I taught my oldest daughter 16 years ago. Shame on me! Perminantly damaged her shoulder. My current three pitchers have never complained about their shoulders.

 

[javasource]

I'm going to state the painfully obvious...

When visiting this site for the first time... you SEE 4 sticky posts. 2 of those 4 are Internal Rotation threads...

Also, the counter system of 'views' worked on this site at one time... and admittedly... after I read the I/R threads, looked at the model threads and the grip thread (again... all STICKY, and on every page at the TOP) - I did a sort on threads for most views... reading only those threads that had a lot of views.

As cagey veterans of this site, some of us know that the view counter system stopped working a while ago... but none of the newbies know this. I REALLY wish that could be fixed... as too much good stuff is getting buried... especially by those that are new to this site.

As far as I/R... the fasted H/E (push through) pitch I've ever caught was 53 mph... and that girl was a beast (truly the exception). Most kids can't break 50 without some form of it... and that's not going to cut it... especially at any level over 12U.

So... even though most might not teach it... it must happen to be successful... In fact, so many 'high-level' instructors try and unteach it... I've heard and seen countless instructors chastise their students for not 'getting behind' the ball... or finishing by picking their nose...

The real issue... IMO... is leaving the world of pitching to 'natural selection'... Pointing out and teaching this invaluable fundamental WILL create much better competition and many more prospects... thus increasing the level of play.

As a PC... I've had to change my lingo a lot because of this site (and the influx of students in my clinics from this site).

I never used the terms i/r (I would mention medial rotation in heated debates), overlap (I'd refer to these as timing points), and all the other handy BoardMemberisms... but I do now... because a lot of thought went into communicating the info BM presented... and honestly... they were better than my descriptions. (and that's painful for me to admit...)

Lastly, in both beginning pitchers and parents.... THE ARM CIRCLE DOMINATES their thoughts... it's all they see and focus on. So... naturally, it's going to be a hot topic on a board dedicated to pitching...

Just my two pence...

Edit...
Not in any way lobbying for a sticky... I swear... Just pointing out that it's the first thing you see when hitting the forum... and deservedly so... it's an invaluable fundamental of pitching.

 

[SoGASoftball]

Everyone agrees that top level pitchers use IR. How many "greats" in college or NPF were taught IR/whip vs HE? I bet (unfortunately, we'll never be able to determine this) more were taught HE regardless of what they actually do. Now that some (wish I knew the percentage) PC's are teaching IR, should we expect a new level of pitching? Will pitchers be more dominant, throw faster, have more spin? I don't think so. They will just get to a natural way of throwing earlier in their journey.