the rise up two seams vs four seams

[aleados]

i have small hands i dont feel comfortable throwing the rise with four seams, my middle finger on a seam and the pointer finger tucked on the other seam..my finger are very open !.. so with the two seams my pointer finger tucked no pushing on a seam but i feel fine ..more velocity .. anybody wants to comment on another grip for the four seams??

gracias !!

 

[rowdy]

The benefit of the four seam is the additional resistance it creates as it spins, which makes it spin faster. Use the same grip you are using on the two seam on the four seam side of the ball and see if that will work for you.

 

[redhawkridge]

I believe the concept that more seams to spin into the air is helpful for a softball to alter course is oversold. I understand the aerodynamics, but in my experience, neither the use of 4 seams nor high seams really made that much difference in whether the ball "moved". If seams make such an impact, why did the fledging golf world realize that a smoothly round ball would curve viciously when it spun off a club head, and thus had to put dimples on their ball to straighten the flight out.
In my opinion, the speed of the spin and the angle of attack of the spin into the air is what develops ball movement.
My advice is to work on a grip that uses the seams to improve the ability of the fingers to spin the ball on the right axis, regardless of whether it's two or four seam.
Jim
PS I wish I had the Spin-rite spinning disk to use when I was working on movement pitches back in the day... It really is helpful. Watch the video of playes demo-ing it, and what they can do with a rise, or drop. Try it, probably the best $20 you'll spend on the internet.

 

[CoachFP]

Anybody that thinks that the number of seams hitting the air doesnt matter has never throw a softball in a game. The seams cut the air and allow the ball to react more aerodynamically. How much more the ball moves is hard to say, but a little is better than none.

 

[redhawkridge]

CoachFP:
Thanks for your kind words about my thought on whether seams are really important to make a ball move. I guess I was pulling my opinion out of my butt, rather than based on 25 years of pitching.
You should explain your theory of balls needing seams to curve to Rafael Nadal, who must be making his top-spin forehand dive like a WWII Stuka with magic dust, since a tennis ball has no more seams than a golf ball.
JimP

 

[Rick Pauly]

Couple thoughts based on many years of instructing and a few years of playing/pitching also.
If you really want to get a great and possibly new perspective on what criteria really makes the ball move I'd advise buying a Rev Fire. I used to have some pretty unwaivering ideas about ball movement, but after several years of using the Rev Fire I've modified a few of them. Here are the criteria in order of importance as to what it takes to make the ball move:
1. Speed
2. Release Angle
3. Release Point
4. Spin direction
5. Seam orientation
6. Spin Rate

Note that I put speed as the top criteria. Don't confuse that with having to throw high speeds. For example, the ball moves more at slower speeds on a dropball whereas the ball moves more at higher speeds on the riseball (gives the illusion of rising more). The words "moves more" means distance of movement not sharpness of the movement.

So to the poster regarding two seam riseball vs. four seam riseball------note where seam orientation is on my list. But, because you are trying to overcome gravity with a riseball you really would be better served to find a way to get a four seam grip. Is it the end of your riseball career if you can't; no but in order to have an elite level riseball you better make sure you have the other criteria maximized.

 

[mrslug01]

CoachFP:
Thanks for your kind words about my thought on whether seams are really important to make a ball move. I guess I was pulling my opinion out of my butt, rather than based on 25 years of pitching.
You should explain your theory of balls needing seams to curve to Rafael Nadal, who must be making his top-spin forehand dive like a WWII Stuka with magic dust, since a tennis ball has no more seams than a golf ball.
JimP

lol perfect answer

 

[qwikvr6gti]

The Magnus Effect. When Spinning the stitches on a spinning ball will cause pressure on one side to be less than on its opposite side. This will force the ball to move faster on one side than the other and will force the ball to "curve." The faster you spin it the more it will curve. The faster you throw it at the same RPM, the later the ball moves during flight.

 

[CoachFP]

A perfect answer to you maybe. Has anyone thrown a softball with low stitches vs one that has raised stitches? The one with the raised stitches will move more. Been there done that. Please remember that the tennis ball is not a softball. There are a lot of fibers on the tennis ball that "catch" the air and make it move. So have your lol.

 

[redhawkridge]

Hey "quikvr6gti" -- what the heck is the Magnus effect???? I wonder if it can be found in the chapter right after the "World is flat" opus.
A problem with Mr Magnus's effect is that any spinning object will increase air pressure on the side spinning in the direction of the movement, including a smooth surfaced sphere. Your side's argument is that higher seams will increase the pressure differential and thus increase the movement. I don't buy that.
By the way, your comment about a ball thrown at higher speed with the same rpm as a slower ball will exhibit delayed movement is quite interesting. I think it may have merit. What you're alluding to sounds like something I describe as a pitch with hockey-stick movement (think Mariano Rivera cut-fastball). However, when I mentioned that I had a pitch at one time that moved similarly, some folks challenged that such movement was impossible and that I should provide video evidence of such heresy. Since it's tough to go back 20 years and generate said video, I dropped the point.
JimP