Talent vs. Practice
- Thread starter EP Dad
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
That's the million dollar question. I asked the question because in the case study thread there was a story posted about the talented girl that played multiple sports got the college playing time, and the girls who did softball, softball, softball and played everywhere in the US to get noticed did not.
So, it begs the question. When is talent noticed, and how late a bloomer have folks seen?
Improved, yes, but the final level of ability depends on where you're starting. I ran track in college (110M high hurdles, 100M Dash, High Jump, and Pole Vault). I worked very, very hard, and did well until I went to the Middle Atlantic Championships. NO amount of training/hard work would make me equivalent (forget better) to some of the people I competed against there. Natural talent definitely plays a role. To think otherwise is naive.
My DD is playing her 3rd year on the same TB team this year (2nd year 12U). She is one of the "hard-working" kids without a lot of natural talent. For example, it has taken her forever to figure out how to run without looking down at her feet constantly - a real problem in the outfield and running the bases! 
But with a lot of hard work on and off the field, she has turned herself into a valuable member of the team - she has a very good bat, bunts well, and makes all the plays she is "supposed" to make in the outfield (and infield when she has the opportunity).
However, she will never be better than the best 5 girls on our team - they are naturally gifted athletes who seem to learn to play the game effortlessly. To believe otherwise is to deny reality, and both she and I can live with that. Where I think work ethic and talent come into play will be as they get older. I believe that the hard work my DD has learned to put in will give her a solid foundation for success in the future, though not necessarily in softball. The girls with all the natural talent now - if they have not learned how to put the time and effort in to keep improving, they will find that other girls (just not my DD) will catch them and surpass them, and that they have not lived up to their potential. This seems to me a much more common situation - a superstar that outworks and outcompetes everybody everyday is a rare find, which is why we all admire them so much when we see them.
But with a lot of hard work on and off the field, she has turned herself into a valuable member of the team - she has a very good bat, bunts well, and makes all the plays she is "supposed" to make in the outfield (and infield when she has the opportunity). However, she will never be better than the best 5 girls on our team - they are naturally gifted athletes who seem to learn to play the game effortlessly. To believe otherwise is to deny reality, and both she and I can live with that. Where I think work ethic and talent come into play will be as they get older. I believe that the hard work my DD has learned to put in will give her a solid foundation for success in the future, though not necessarily in softball. The girls with all the natural talent now - if they have not learned how to put the time and effort in to keep improving, they will find that other girls (just not my DD) will catch them and surpass them, and that they have not lived up to their potential. This seems to me a much more common situation - a superstar that outworks and outcompetes everybody everyday is a rare find, which is why we all admire them so much when we see them.
I have read both The Talent Code and Talent is Overrated, two pretty definitive books on the subject of talent and what it consists of. Both are based on research, not speculation. And both come to the same conclusion -- talent is a myth. No one is born with the innate ability to do anything. Sure, some have certain physical attributes that give them advantages, such as more fast twitch muscles in sports. But to excel at something like softball, it takes more than that. A lot more.
In Talent is Overrated, they look at people we would all consider to be talented, and go back to when they were very young. In every case, they did not stand out over others their age in raw ability. But they adopted a different attitude early on, and practiced with a different type of intensity, both in terms of their engagement in the practice and the amount of it they did. Both books quote 10,000 hours of "deep practice" -- mind-numbingly dull but thorough practice -- as the magic number.
So, you may see kids who practice a couple hours a day. When they're done they're physically tired, but not mentally. "Talented" people tend to practice until their brains are cashed. They do it day in and day out. They break down the skills required and practice little pieces of them for hours on end, until they get them right. That's not most of the players you know.
It takes a very special mindset to get to that point. Again, having more fast twitch muscles will help you run faster. But in a skill-based sport like ours, it won't be enough. You'll be better than many, especially those who don't work hard. But give me the kid who is willing to deep practice. She'll be the standout.
In Talent is Overrated, they look at people we would all consider to be talented, and go back to when they were very young. In every case, they did not stand out over others their age in raw ability. But they adopted a different attitude early on, and practiced with a different type of intensity, both in terms of their engagement in the practice and the amount of it they did. Both books quote 10,000 hours of "deep practice" -- mind-numbingly dull but thorough practice -- as the magic number.
So, you may see kids who practice a couple hours a day. When they're done they're physically tired, but not mentally. "Talented" people tend to practice until their brains are cashed. They do it day in and day out. They break down the skills required and practice little pieces of them for hours on end, until they get them right. That's not most of the players you know.
It takes a very special mindset to get to that point. Again, having more fast twitch muscles will help you run faster. But in a skill-based sport like ours, it won't be enough. You'll be better than many, especially those who don't work hard. But give me the kid who is willing to deep practice. She'll be the standout.
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Very interesting, have to add to my reading list. However, as a father of 16-year old triplets (2G +1 B) who had nearly identical life experiences through age 3 or 4, I have to say I believe that there is an inherent genetic predisposition. 1 DD is into SB seriously, VB, swims, artistic, loves to read and is logical/sequential and an excellent student; other DD was left-handed from birth, creative, into signing, drama, loves to read, oral learning style, good student, dabbled in but no real passion for sports; son is into soccer seriously and golf and enjoys all other sports; quick visual learner but is an average plus student looking only to do the minimum (if allowed!). All were introduced to everything equally and over time developed individual interests and passions. Based on this limited study, I believe that at least personality and learning styles are more genetic than experiential and am inclined to believe that innate talent is similar (unless its influenced by personality, which I can't rule out). I'll refrain from trying to understand others until I can begin to understand my own. Advice welcomed!
My concluding thought is that a full-grown 5' adult isn't going to be able to dunk a basketball no matter how much they practice!
I really don't know what to say about some of these responses.
IF your daughter has the dream to play college ball AND displays the desire and drive to do what it takes to get to that level. Don't write it off. Read the books Ken suggested. Then find a GOOD exercise physiologist or athletic trainer to do a functional movement screening of your kid and work with the professional to correct what ever movement or neuro-muscular deficencies are holding her back.
Maximise the strengths and minimize the weaknesses and hope for the best or shrug your shoulders and blame genetics.
GM - How tall was Spud Webb? Not much over 5' if I remember right. Luckly dunking a basketball isn't required to 'play' basketball much less softball. That example is like saying that if a softball player can't go yard in she'll not play at a high level.
IF your daughter has the dream to play college ball AND displays the desire and drive to do what it takes to get to that level. Don't write it off. Read the books Ken suggested. Then find a GOOD exercise physiologist or athletic trainer to do a functional movement screening of your kid and work with the professional to correct what ever movement or neuro-muscular deficencies are holding her back.
Maximise the strengths and minimize the weaknesses and hope for the best or shrug your shoulders and blame genetics.
GM - How tall was Spud Webb? Not much over 5' if I remember right.
Luckly dunking a basketball isn't required to 'play' basketball much less softball. That example is like saying that if a softball player can't go yard in she'll not play at a high level.
One thing to keep in mind with what I said is they were talking about what it takes to get to the very top of a sport, the world of music, writing, or other activities where it is believed that some have more innate talent than others. So in our case, becoming National Team members, as opposed to playing at a D1 school or being the best player in your local HS conference. All the National Team members were the best players in their local conferences, but not all the best players make it to the National Team.
There are definitely genetic advantages that will take you so far, and will likely make you better than the other players who don't have those advantages and who work equally to what you do. Or maybe even a little harder. But if you get in with a group of players who are fairly equal in the genetic advantage area, it will be the ones who work the hardest, and smartest, who win out every time. By the same token, if you work that hard and smart, you can overcome certain genetic disadvantages and pass those who are physically superior. I've seen lots of examples of that. Thing is, most people (especially kids) aren't willing to fail enough early on to succeed later, so they give up before getting anywhere near that point.
There are definitely genetic advantages that will take you so far, and will likely make you better than the other players who don't have those advantages and who work equally to what you do. Or maybe even a little harder. But if you get in with a group of players who are fairly equal in the genetic advantage area, it will be the ones who work the hardest, and smartest, who win out every time. By the same token, if you work that hard and smart, you can overcome certain genetic disadvantages and pass those who are physically superior. I've seen lots of examples of that. Thing is, most people (especially kids) aren't willing to fail enough early on to succeed later, so they give up before getting anywhere near that point.
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
GM - How tall was Spud Webb? Not much over 5' if I remember right.
Bishop - I hear what you're saying! FWIW, the Spudster was 5'6" Spud Webb NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Ken - I'm buying what you're selling; however, while I don't believe that there is a genetic predisposition to specifically be a softball or basketball etc. star, I do think that overall "athleticism" is genetically predisposed. As noted above, its the cultivation and development of that talent that determines the ultimate performance ceiling. All other things being relatively equal, hard work wins out.
Similar threads
