Spin

[RubberBiscuit]

Still tryin to get an answer to this challenge that i am indifferent on:

Is a tutored from youth IR pitcher gonna have difficulty with RB spins?

A couple PCs around here i have talked to about the IR trend and they make this claim.

Can anyone send video of a dominant IR pitcher with a killer RB too?

 

[FrozenRope]

As has been mentioned the RevFire is nice and expensive. It does give immediate feed back. For some pitchers the RevFire can create more problems than it is worth. They focus on the spin number (over rotating the ball) rather than throwing a pitch with good fundamentals.

I would tend to disagree with this point. If a pitcher is at the point where she is working on spin, then she's most definately been through the stage where working on one thing may "break" another. In my opinion, it's part of the learning curve. Geting feedback, ACCURATE feedback on whether or not your spin is improving is valuable information. ESPECIALLY when experimenting with grips, release, etc. This isn't a blind simulator that may tell you youre doing one thing right but blinds you to the point that everything else has gone astray. You're still pitching a ball to a "target". If it's causing issues with velocity/location....it will be evident. I'm of the mindset that the more feedback you get...the better.

 

[Ken B]

Still tryin to get an answer to this challenge that i am indifferent on:

Is a tutored from youth IR pitcher gonna have difficulty with RB spins?

A couple PCs around here i have talked to about the IR trend and they make this claim.

Can anyone send video of a dominant IR pitcher with a killer RB too?

No video from me, but I believe IR is the only way to get good RB spin. The fingers, regardless of the feel cues given, have to drive hard under the ball. IR is about the only way to do this.

 

[lhowser]

Still tryin to get an answer to this challenge that i am indifferent on:

Is a tutored from youth IR pitcher gonna have difficulty with RB spins?

A couple PCs around here i have talked to about the IR trend and they make this claim.

Can anyone send video of a dominant IR pitcher with a killer RB too?

This is a great video to watch. Luckily I ran across it. One of the best out there working on all of her pitches. The pitches at the end are RB's and the catcher seems to act like they are pretty good.

 

[Ken B]

After watching Traina, I looked at the suggested videos after and found this one. Can someone make a gif of this from 2:13 to 2:14? Seems to show some IR in her RB along with some other interesting technical considerations.

Thanks

 

[Rocketech1]

Still tryin to get an answer to this challenge that i am indifferent on:

Is a tutored from youth IR pitcher gonna have difficulty with RB spins?

A couple PCs around here i have talked to about the IR trend and they make this claim. ?

Clearly these PCs don't understand the concept and mechanics of internal rotation (arm whip). Every pitch, to some degree, involves the shoulder complex, upper arm, lower arm, and wrist/hand wanting to internally rotate to its neutral resting state to the center of the body. The rise ball absolutely uses IR to generate the arm whip necessary to create velocity and maximum back spin on the ball. The flip change up, for example, uses IR but it happens early in the arm circle so by the time the arm reaches 3:00 (the back of the hand is over rotated and is pointed to the ground) and by the time the pitch is released at 6:00 the spin and speed is "killed". Conversely, with the rise ball, at 3:00 the back of the hand is also pointed down but is open and is 180 opposite compared to the c/u hand and is "fully loaded" for maximum arm whip into the release.

Every single pitcher that pitches a rise ball is using internal rotation so if you want video of this IR all one has to do is go to the Model Pitchers sticky and find one labeled "rise ball" and there you go.

My last point is IR really has little to do with what happens after release but more importantly how you use the arm, wrist and hand from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock. The hello elbow finish is only a symptom of improper mechanics happening upstream prior to the release of the ball.

 

[starsnuffer]

I had a kid that pitched backwards like the one in your video Ken (I know the kid in your video actually). Took a while to fix that. A lot of it has to do with improper weight shift before and after the pitch. Footwork here is everything. I can't even look at her arm, but I can see where you're going.

Look, spin is spin. The ball is either spinning in the right direction or it is not spinning in the right direction. How fast the ball is spinning will determine how much the ball breaks. HOW the spin is put on the ball does not really matter. All pitchers internally rotate unless they're bowling. There's just no way to have arm whip without this motion happening, because the radius and ulna do not bend.

The speed that the hand is moving at release will determine how fast the ball "rolls" off the fingers. Everything that contributes to the speed of a pitch here (IR and arm whip included) will also determine the speed at which the ball can roll off the fingers imparting spin. In addition to this, the fingers can move (snap) in the opposite direction from the ball leaving the fingertips amplifying spin. The seams provide traction and a greater ball radius (more speed). It really isn't more complex then that.

Tell a kid to pitch fast with good arm whip and snap their fingers off the ball, and have them understand which way the ball should be spinning and how to spot spin correctly, and you're good. The rest is background noise for bucket engineers.

-W

 

[Ken B]

Clearly these PCs don't understand the concept and mechanics of internal rotation (arm whip). Every pitch, to some degree, involves the shoulder complex, upper arm, lower arm, and wrist/hand wanting to internally rotate to its neutral resting state to the center of the body. The rise ball absolutely uses IR to generate the arm whip necessary to create velocity and maximum back spin on the ball. The flip change up, for example, uses IR but it happens early in the arm circle so by the time the arm reaches 3:00 (the back of the hand is over rotated and is pointed to the ground) and by the time the pitch is released at 6:00 the spin and speed is "killed". Conversely, with the rise ball, at 3:00 the back of the hand is also pointed down but is open and is 180 opposite compared to the c/u hand and is "fully loaded" for maximum arm whip into the release.

Every single pitcher that pitches a rise ball is using internal rotation so if you want video of this IR all one has to do is go to the Model Pitchers sticky and find one labeled "rise ball" and there you go.

My last point is IR really has little to do with what happens after release but more importantly how you use the arm, wrist and hand from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock. The hello elbow finish is only a symptom of improper mechanics happening upstream prior to the release of the ball.

I agree with everything but the last paragraph. I see HE and bowling as two separate problems. I believe one can have IR and HE. I also believe it possible to bowl, but have a decent follow through.

 

[Rocketech1]

After watching Traina, I looked at the suggested videos after and found this one. Can someone make a gif of this from 2:13 to 2:14? Seems to show some IR in her RB along with some other interesting technical considerations.

Thanks

Ken, IMO I wouldn't bother, this girl's pitching mechanics are poor in so many areas that its not even worth analyzing for this rise ball discussion.

 

[Ken B]

I had a kid that pitched backwards like the one in your video Ken (I know the kid in your video actually). Took a while to fix that. A lot of it has to do with improper weight shift before and after the pitch. Footwork here is everything. I can't even look at her arm, but I can see where you're going.

Look, spin is spin. The ball is either spinning in the right direction or it is not spinning in the right direction. How fast the ball is spinning will determine how much the ball breaks. HOW the spin is put on the ball does not really matter. All pitchers internally rotate unless they're bowling. There's just no way to have arm whip without this motion happening, because the radius and ulna do not bend.

The speed that the hand is moving at release will determine how fast the ball "rolls" off the fingers. Everything that contributes to the speed of a pitch here (IR and arm whip included) will also determine the speed at which the ball can roll off the fingers imparting spin. In addition to this, the fingers can move (snap) in the opposite direction from the ball leaving the fingertips amplifying spin. The seams provide traction and a greater ball radius (more speed). It really isn't more complex then that.

Tell a kid to pitch fast with good arm whip and snap their fingers off the ball, and have them understand which way the ball should be spinning and how to spot spin correctly, and you're good. The rest is background noise for bucket engineers.

-W

Can you say a little more about the girl's improper weight shift before the pitch? I liked what I was seeing up until the pivot foot leaving.

"Backwards" was exactly what I was thinking. Almost like the ball/glove were on the wrong hands and the head turned the wrong way.

When you're telling a kid to snap their fingers off the ball, is that a combined effort of the whip to supply the energy and the fingers adding the direction? I know we try to teach a relaxed release, but I'm thinking that sometimes a little muscle (bent finger flip, snapping feeling with the middle finger and thumb) can add a little something for someone who already has the basic motion down.


Thanks,
Ken