Snf

[TDS]

I would say this clip is very relevant for the debate as we are arguing both sides right now. You see front leg action (2 legs), and I don't (1 leg). If you teach me to see the front leg action in this clip, maybe I start to see it in pro swings. If I convince others conversely, maybe they start to see that most post-stride front leg movements are just the result of rear side action.

This clip is launch and the hands aren't moving back. They are turning. I do not see any slop here. His barrel turn is instantly echoed throughout his entire body. This clip is the gold standard for no-slop.

I am not capable of breaking into a legitimate anatomical analysis, but I'll try. By stretch across the pelvis I assume you are referring to front side clearing which is usually accomplished by a front side ER movement. I just don't see any signs of front leg ER in this clip (as indicated by his front foot). I don't see stretch across the pelvis, I see his pelvis being turned by the backside which I guess would be a compressive force pushing across his pelvis out to his front hip. His front hip is pulling his front leg out of the way, but only because it is being pushed radially around a rear leg axis.

This is exactly what separates the movement patterns.. One is a linear push from the rear side to the front side, while the other is middle out with both legs supporting the core actions..

The push across is also responsible for hitters lunging when fooled.

 

[jryan15]

The hands aren't moving back? Well, they aren't staying still, they aren't moving forward. Are they moving down? Wherever they are going, they are going in the wrong direction.

I think the video shows that they are not moving back. They are turning. His hands are in tight connection with his body.

It's true He doesn't create much stretch across the pelvis, but considering He's trying his hardest to not allow that to happen at all and yet it still happens is awesome.

He's not resisting anything. The front leg isn't even on the radar. He doesn't have to give it a passing thought. It does take concentration not to let your rear side go, but the front side is occupying 0% processing power.

It would be easy to add a front leg IR into the drill, and the front leg IR could then be used to push into the backside. However that is not happening in this clip.

You said "pushing" in your post. "pushing across the pelvis". I don't think that's allowed. That's like pushing a rubber band. A compressive force pushing across the pelvis would be like hip slide or a slip.

You can push a car while pulling a sled, but it won't help you pull the sled faster. You want the barrel to be pulled, and it is in this example.


My post thus far have just been trying to set the record straight as to what was going on in the clip, but I'll add my thoughts from a swing theory standpoint.

I argue that if one were to IR their front so hard that it pushes into their back side, then it would be in the way of the swing. It would force the hitter to consciously release the front side before swinging. Seems to me that it would lengthen the swing process and by definition would be considered a slop move.

If one were to contend that they let the front leg IR go as part of the stride process in a way that was well before the swing and thus always being out of the way of the swing, then it is logical to argue that any extra stretch that it may have imparted would also be gone well before the swing.

 

[redhotcoach]

This is exactly what separates the movement patterns.. One is a linear push from the rear side to the front side, while the other is middle out with both legs supporting the core actions..

The push across is also responsible for hitters lunging when fooled.

Only movement pattern that is a linear push from the rear side to the front is Yeager's and no one in this discussion has brought that up...but you know that already.

 

[Buttermaker]

FWIW -

The difference between using the hands to create reaction and the hands reacting to the core movements is enormous. Any method that involves the use of the hands first to create movement goes against the research done by Dr McGill and others - that energy originates in the core muscles through pulses.

The initial lateral bend stretches not muscles but the fascia system across the whole body. The release of this initial stretch is initiated by (or should be) inner core muscles and should be followed by a lateral bend to the rear side (almost like a sling shot effect due to the fascia initially stretched in one direction looking to return to normal but then stretched in the opposite direction). If the hands do nothing but react you get a swing off with little effort (comparable to using the arms) hence the phrase - the barrel gets turned.

If a player can figure out how to acquire the initial fascia stretch either through movement or via a preset stance - the rest of swing movement is almost automatic.

And to tie this in with the hips - if both hips are not pulling back into a resistance
it is pretty darn near impossible to acquire the correct fascia stretch.

 

[mann]

The hands fight the core movements. They resist the core movements, and then they dictate how far the hips turn and extend into the ball. That is if you believe that the hips turn more on inside and less on outside.

 

[Greenmonsters]

... if you believe that the hips turn more on inside and less on outside.

Yes, they do

The hands fight the core movements. They resist the core movements.....

The hands staying back is a better description IMO

The hands fight the core movements. They resist the core movements, and then they dictate how far the hips turn and extend into the ball....

Wrong cause and effect IMO. The amount of hip turn/rotation determines the hand path i.e., the hips turn to enable the hands to deliver the barrel and square the ball on the sweet spot - more turn on inside pitches, less on outside

 

[fpthrives]

Not trying to make anyone see ghosts. I guess this really is at the core of the debate between 1 and 2 legged-ness.

I have worked on this drill many times. It requires a fair amount of concentration to perform since you are really focused on pulling back and not giving it up. Mentally you are narrowing down to a singular movement to launch... The barrel turn... Nothing else matters. I can say that moving or trying to control the front leg is not even on the radar. For all intensive purposes, that front leg is dead weight. It is muscularly deactivated.

I'm no GIF master, but hopefully these frames will help show that the front leg is being moved by the front hip which is being moved by the rear hip which was triggered by the barrel turn (as can be seen with the subtle elbow movement). It is a trailing action (watch his right side belt loop).

I guess people will see what they want to see, but there is no kick happening here. This isn't like guessing at a Pujlos clip as the journey of this boy is well documented. No front leg action is factually correct in this clip.

When you focus on pulling back and not giving up, what is it that you focus on pulling back? What is it pulled back against?

 

[rdbass]

When you focus on pulling back and not giving up, what is it that you focus on pulling back? What is it pulled back against?

When you focus on pulling back and not giving up, what is it that you focus on pulling back?

Pulling up and back/resisting with the arms/hands as the rear hip/leg turns forward.

what is it that you focus on pulling back?

The upper body,hands arms.

What is it pulled back against?

The rear hip/leg turning forward.
The 'missing frames'.

 

[4 girl's dad]

In my limited experience and extremely untrained eye, this looks like a kick by the leg and is not initiated by the hips. Is that correct?

 

[mann]

Yes, they do



The hands staying back is a better description IMO



Wrong cause and effect IMO. The amount of hip turn/rotation determines the hand path i.e., the hips turn to enable the hands to deliver the barrel and square the ball on the sweet spot - more turn on inside pitches, less on outside

The hands staying back is a better description IMO

I am talking even further into the sequence.into the barrel load I believe as soon as you commit to the pitch with your hands, the hips will extend towards the pitch