Snf

[tjintx]

Quote Originally Posted by jryan15 View Post

Tjintx, there is no front leg action in that clip. The front leg is being moved...

Are you referring to this clip ?

If so, you better look for another brand of Kool-Aid because you are hallucinating.

 

[jryan15]

Not trying to make anyone see ghosts. I guess this really is at the core of the debate between 1 and 2 legged-ness.

I have worked on this drill many times. It requires a fair amount of concentration to perform since you are really focused on pulling back and not giving it up. Mentally you are narrowing down to a singular movement to launch... The barrel turn... Nothing else matters. I can say that moving or trying to control the front leg is not even on the radar. For all intensive purposes, that front leg is dead weight. It is muscularly deactivated.

I'm no GIF master, but hopefully these frames will help show that the front leg is being moved by the front hip which is being moved by the rear hip which was triggered by the barrel turn (as can be seen with the subtle elbow movement). It is a trailing action (watch his right side belt loop).

I guess people will see what they want to see, but there is no kick happening here. This isn't like guessing at a Pujlos clip as the journey of this boy is well documented. No front leg action is factually correct in this clip.

 

[tjintx]

Not trying to make anyone see ghosts. I guess this really is at the core of the debate between 1 and 2 legged-ness.

I have worked on this drill many times. It requires a fair amount of concentration to perform since you are really focused on pulling back and not giving it up. Mentally you are narrowing down to a singular movement to launch... The barrel turn... Nothing else matters. I can say that moving or trying to control the front leg is not even on the radar. For all intensive purposes, that front leg is dead weight. It is muscularly deactivated.

I'm no GIF master, but hopefully these frames will help show that the front leg is being moved by the front hip which is being moved by the rear hip which was triggered by the barrel turn (as can be seen with the subtle elbow movement). It is a trailing action (watch his right side belt loop).

I guess people will see what they want to see, but there is no kick happening here. This isn't like guessing at a Pujlos clip as the journey of this boy is well documented. No front leg action is factually correct in this clip.

Yes, people do see what they want to see. The CORE of the debate between 1-legged and 2-legged has nothing to do with this clip. This clip is an attempt to kill the front side purposely and yet the front side somehow finds a way to poke fun at the drill. A front side leg would not act that way as prescribed by the drill.
So the barrel turn launches the rear leg which in turn launches the..... The lead forearm and hands are moving back in your clip. Are the hands supposed to move backwards at launch from such a tight connection. Wouldn't that indicate slack? So the hands move backwards while the rear elbow slots All in anticipation of the coveted sync up. but the sync up doesn't occur until the front leg moves away causing stretch across the pelvis and allowing the rear leg a lane to work through. Look closer jryan
So the front leg is being moved by the front hip? Can you specify what you consider the front hip to be. I think the front hip and front leg are connected. Did you mean the pelvis is moving the front leg?
OK I'm looking at His right belt loop and I just don't see it. A slight move while a disproportionate move occurs in the front leg. Do you think the rear leg makes the front leg jump away from it like opposing magnetic tips? I can appreciate your optimism and dedication to the rear legged control drill. It just doesn't add up when you look at the clip.

 

[TDS]

3. There is unintentional work (automated might be the better word) going on with the rear side because of his setup and continual pull-back.

jryan, There should never be any intentional pull-back as long as there is pre-swing stretch going on. The pre-swing stretch sets up for balanced stretch during the back-swing.. Movement happening while the pitch is being delivered needs to be reactionary due to the up front actions.

 

[TDS]

I wasn't trying to call you out or anything. I was just adding my comments on what was going on in the HI clip...

1. There is no front side work going on (intentional or unintentional).
2. IMO there is not any intentional rear side work going on.
3. There is unintentional work (automated might be the better word) going on with the rear side because of his setup and continual pull-back.
4. His barrel turn was the trigger (IMO his only intentional "do")
5. IMO Everything else just "happened" (because he setup correctly and did not give up his pullback)

I don't recommend using DD as the model, there is still a lot to work on in that swing. Also it is not a game swing just yet so comparisons are not readily available...

That being said I don't know that her stride would be tremendously affected by off-speed. If the pitcher's cruising speed was fast enough, I do think there would be a difference between the two swings. Funny you mention Bonds as I would hope that her reaction to off-speed would be Bonds like.

I don't really see any intentional front side movement between the two cuts. His front knee does move differently, but IMO it is a result of rear side actions.

jRyan, Your daughters movement was much more balanced in her previous swing IMO.. Back side should be tied to movements within the sagittal plane, which is why I like her movements better in her previous swings.



Now I know these aren't a perfect match but her movements are working in the correct plane.

 

[jryan15]

I would say this clip is very relevant for the debate as we are arguing both sides right now. You see front leg action (2 legs), and I don't (1 leg). If you teach me to see the front leg action in this clip, maybe I start to see it in pro swings. If I convince others conversely, maybe they start to see that most post-stride front leg movements are just the result of rear side action.

This clip is launch and the hands aren't moving back. They are turning. I do not see any slop here. His barrel turn is instantly echoed throughout his entire body. This clip is the gold standard for no-slop.

I am not capable of breaking into a legitimate anatomical analysis, but I'll try. By stretch across the pelvis I assume you are referring to front side clearing which is usually accomplished by a front side ER movement. I just don't see any signs of front leg ER in this clip (as indicated by his front foot). I don't see stretch across the pelvis, I see his pelvis being turned by the backside which I guess would be a compressive force pushing across his pelvis out to his front hip. His front hip is pulling his front leg out of the way, but only because it is being pushed radially around a rear leg axis.

 

[jryan15]

jRyan, Your daughters movement was much more balanced in her previous swing IMO.. Back side should be tied to movements within the sagittal plane, which is why I like her movements better in her previous swings.



Now I know these aren't a perfect match but her movements are working in the correct plane.

Again DD is not the right model to argue this point. Maybe by the summer, but not now.

The outdoors clip was not an exercise in balance. It was an effort to turn the barrel (which eliminated DBSF). The old clip that you dug up has a slop move... It is a scap launched swing, and it took me a while to finally see my ERR in going that direction... Part of living and and learning. Just compare the barrel movement at the moment she is going all-in in both clips. The old swing has tons of slop before the barrel speeds up, the new one shows the barrel blurring instantly.

The old clip was an improvement from where we were. The new swing is however a night and day improvement. It may not look like it, but it is fundamentally different. Worlds apart.

 

[tjintx]

I would say this clip is very relevant for the debate as we are arguing both sides right now. You see front leg action (2 legs), and I don't (1 leg). If you teach me to see the front leg action in this clip, maybe I start to see it in pro swings. If I convince others conversely, maybe they start to see that most post-stride front leg movements are just the result of rear side action.

This clip is launch and the hands aren't moving back. They are turning. I do not see any slop here. His barrel turn is instantly echoed throughout his entire body. This clip is the gold standard for no-slop.

I am not capable of breaking into a legitimate anatomical analysis, but I'll try. By stretch across the pelvis I assume you are referring to front side clearing which is usually accomplished by a front side ER movement. I just don't see any signs of front leg ER in this clip (as indicated by his front foot). I don't see stretch across the pelvis, I see his pelvis being turned by the backside which I guess would be a compressive force pushing across his pelvis out to his front hip. His front hip is pulling his front leg out of the way, but only because it is being pushed radially around a rear leg axis.

The clip may seem relevant to a person on the 1-legged side of the debate but to a person on the 2-legged(balanced) not so much. but it's fun to watch people try to move the body out of balance only to find the body misbehaving in order to find balance in the new lesser mechanics.
The hands aren't moving back? Well, they aren't staying still, they aren't moving forward. Are they moving down? Wherever they are going, they are going in the wrong direction.
OK, so you see his front toe pointed at the ground and from that you assume there can be no stretch across the pelvis? Is that because you view the foot turn open(ER) is the only way to create that kind of stretch? Try this, stand pigeon toed, now just turn your knees out as much as you can. Move your focus closer to the middle of the body and away from the hands and feet. It's true He doesn't create much stretch across the pelvis, but considering He's trying his hardest to not allow that to happen at all and yet it still happens is awesome. It's athletic, but that athleticism is being removed. Imagine if He was actually trying to create stretch? Oh, and the front leg is only a symptom of the stretch, not the cause.
You said "pushing" in your post. "pushing across the pelvis". I don't think that's allowed. That's like pushing a rubber band. A compressive force pushing across the pelvis would be like hip slide or a slip.
I'm not capable of doing an antomycal analysis either

 

[Buttermaker]

Not saying that pinching and releasing the scap is a good swing model - but any model that teaches to pinch the scap and clamp it down it missing the boat. Many of us have been down that road. The scaps stretch and move as needed and react to the core movements and lateral bend of the spine.

WRT the front leg / front hip. The front leg pulls back into the front hip so I use front leg/front hip the same way. Without the front leg doing its job - yes you have a dead front leg that has to be moved by something else. Anyone who thinks that is possible while swinging half way decent is just deluding themselves. Even the master's snf demo show a front leg pulling back against resistance even if he will not admit it. It's a trap he set up to leave out the teaching of the front leg and then say no one is doing it correctly - unless of course he is using you to pimp his methods and pony up the membership fee.

And for the record. The stretch across the hips is the sacroiliac joints being forced open. Very tight very powerful. And you cannot get this stretch if the front leg is dead.

 

[TDS]

Again DD is not the right model to argue this point. Maybe by the summer, but not now.

The outdoors clip was not an exercise in balance. It was an effort to turn the barrel (which eliminated DBSF). The old clip that you dug up has a slop move... It is a scap launched swing, and it took me a while to finally see my ERR in going that direction... Part of living and and learning. Just compare the barrel movement at the moment she is going all-in in both clips. The old swing has tons of slop before the barrel speeds up, the new one shows the barrel blurring instantly.

The old clip was an improvement from where we were. The new swing is however a night and day improvement. It may not look like it, but it is fundamentally different. Worlds apart.

The old clip isn't a perfect match but her planes of movement are without doubt better and more balanced.. The barrel going back (front/back) should add resistance to balance out the frontal actions (catcher/pitcher). I wouldn't look at the barrel going back as a slop move but more of a running start as long as the core is in control.