shoulder pain

[sjsss]

"This stuff about "pitchers being invulnerable" and "pitchers can throw forever without injury" is nonsense. There is more than enough scientific evidence establishing that pitching can result in injury no matter whether the pitcher has perfect form or not"

Sluggers is exactly right here. We have all seen the studies that demonstrate just how vulnerable pitchers are to overuse injury, no matter how efficient the mechanics. Yet many continue to shrug this information off, encouraging young pitchers to pitch until they drop...or suffer serious irreversable injury. I shudder when I watch my students pitch game after game after game driven by trophy hunting dads and coaches.

One of my students pitched 265 innings in high school last year. My daughter led her conference in innings pitched in college at just over 180. Add in that the high schooler is pitching dozens of travel ball games over the summer and fall, weekly pitching lessons, and you get the picture. Her mechanics are near perfect, but her body is beginning to break down under the insane load being placed upon it.

Steve

 

[halskinner]

Hey PT. I dont think Sluggerz and I were at odds on anything. There are pitchers out there that can handle a pitching schedule like that. The majority, however, cannot because they are just not in the shape they need to be to do it.

Your post forces me to ask the question; What was it that took out your knees? Pitching?? I would suspect basketball myself.

In all the years I worked with students I can only recall one that injured a knee pitching; A slip on wet dirt in a rainy day game snapped her knee back and hurt it. Other than that, I dont recall any of them injuring a knee except when they played other sports. Soccer, basketball and volleyball produced some injuries to my students.

Softball did too, playing other positions and collisions. I can recall one that blew her ACL rounding 2nd, no collision and another blew her ACL playing her 'other' position, right field and running towards the ball and turning sharply.

I was very fortunate to not hear any reports of anything other than a strained or slightly pulled muscle now and then, from any of my students at any age or competition level. Most of those were blamed on other things, per the parents.

Again, I fall back to my statement of their 'Pitching stamina' being the dividing line between throwing multiple games in a day, or just a few innings a day safely. I have seen them at both ends of that scale.

 

[ponytailpower]

Hal,
Pitching is what took out the knees (as well as a number of other joints) but it was due to overuse beginning at an early age. I played many sports but only softball and bowling in an organized fashion until high school. Basketball did not cause the knee problems but brought it to the attention of the coaches and my mother because I was unable to run by this point. The problems were caused by the explosion off the rubber. This explosion ends with a jarring effect to the leg such as is found in runners. It is not a problem if is done in moderation but I was pitching not only as a sport but as an escape. I was literally throwing hundreds of pitches every day year round starting when I was about 5 years old. One orthopedic doc told me it was equivalent to a five year old running a marathon on a weekly basis. Putting this much stress on the joints as they are growing is what has caused the damage in all of my joints. It was a simple case of doing way too much too soon. I was damaging my joints as they were growing and had no idea.

Knee injuries are not as prevalent because the coaches of today are a bit wiser then they were back when I was pitching and the overall conditioning of athletes has improved, again due to more knowledgable coaches and parents. Knee injuries do still occur with pitchers but you typically see it more in the younger pitchers trying to pitch the leap and drag style before their bodies are ready. If you look closely at those younger pitchers claiming to throw leap and drag they do not have a true leap and this good. It is the young ladies who are getting a true leap that tend to have trouble because the lead leg takes quite a hit with each leap. The growing joint can only take some much of this abuse. Fortunately, most young ladies are doing more of a long step instead of a true leap and this protects their joints. When they become strong enough to actually leap they are usually older and their joints can withstand the force of this action better. Unfortunately, these girls tend to get their power from their lower backs since they do not have the power from the leap so you see more lower back and mid shoulder pain from them compensating. But that is a completely different topic altogether.

This being said, the main point here was that overuse is a bad thing and even though a young (and again I am referring to under 13 years old here) pitcher has conditioned herself to throw hundreds of pitches on a regular basis and can do so without soreness and pain does not mean she SHOULD be throwing this much. Overuse injuries tend to make themselves known down the road. She may have no problem now throwing forever and a day and love every muinute of it but ten years from now that kid may very well pay the price for all that action.

 

[halskinner]

Hal,
Pitching is what took out the knees (as well as a number of other joints) but it was due to overuse beginning at an early age. I played many sports but only softball and bowling in an organized fashion until high school. Basketball did not cause the knee problems but brought it to the attention of the coaches and my mother because I was unable to run by this point. The problems were caused by the explosion off the rubber. This explosion ends with a jarring effect to the leg such as is found in runners. It is not a problem if is done in moderation but I was pitching not only as a sport but as an escape. I was literally throwing hundreds of pitches every day year round starting when I was about 5 years old. One orthopedic doc told me it was equivalent to a five year old running a marathon on a weekly basis. Putting this much stress on the joints as they are growing is what has caused the damage in all of my joints. It was a simple case of doing way too much too soon. I was damaging my joints as they were growing and had no idea.

Knee injuries are not as prevalent because the coaches of today are a bit wiser then they were back when I was pitching and the overall conditioning of athletes has improved, again due to more knowledgable coaches and parents. Knee injuries do still occur with pitchers but you typically see it more in the younger pitchers trying to pitch the leap and drag style before their bodies are ready. If you look closely at those younger pitchers claiming to throw leap and drag they do not have a true leap and this good. It is the young ladies who are getting a true leap that tend to have trouble because the lead leg takes quite a hit with each leap. The growing joint can only take some much of this abuse. Fortunately, most young ladies are doing more of a long step instead of a true leap and this protects their joints. When they become strong enough to actually leap they are usually older and their joints can withstand the force of this action better. Unfortunately, these girls tend to get their power from their lower backs since they do not have the power from the leap so you see more lower back and mid shoulder pain from them compensating. But that is a completely different topic altogether.

This being said, the main point here was that overuse is a bad thing and even though a young (and again I am referring to under 13 years old here) pitcher has conditioned herself to throw hundreds of pitches on a regular basis and can do so without soreness and pain does not mean she SHOULD be throwing this much. Overuse injuries tend to make themselves known down the road. She may have no problem now throwing forever and a day and love every muinute of it but ten years from now that kid may very well pay the price for all that action.

________________________________________________________________

Sounds like we would have a difference of opinion on what is the correct and safest mechanics for a leap and drag pitcher.

I have seen very few step style pitchers that DID NOT come down on their stride foot with a lot of force and some with ridiculous amounts of force.

Many would even touch down with their knee straight and locked. Some were even taught to bend backwards and bring their stride foot up as high as their waist and then come slamming down to the ground out in front with a big loud stomp.

I cannot count how many young pitchers I have watched in games that would land with no opening of the hips and their stride foot turned to 90-degrees!!! Those still send chills down my spine. Talk about stressful to the hip and knee!!

If taught correctly, the stride foot for a leap and drag pitcher should never get more than around 4 inches off the plane of the dirt. That part of the mechanics never changed no matter how aggressive, not aggressive, how long or short the stride was.

The stride knee also had a bend to it to also help absorb any shock.

These were one of the first things taught to my students at any age.

Do overuse injuries exist? Yes they do. Do coaches nowadays have more knowledge on what is required for the safest mechanics? Good GOD I hope so! With all the knowledge available to them, they better be.

A kid growing very tall very soon in life can also have problems with the knees because of that fact alone.

WHEN TAUGHT CORRECTLY, the stride foot landing is very smooth and is NOT jarring at all.

What I would say to try and impress my beginners is "Never let your stride foot get any higher off the ground than if you were wearing roller skates".

Once they got away from a hard and jarring landing and started coming down soft and smooth, guess what other benefit they experienced? They started throwing alot more strikes. They normally had a big increase in accuracy and THEY KNEW IT TOO. Get rid of that jarring landing, you had a smoother arm circle as well and that equates to safer mechanics forthe shoulder complex.

Are their still instructors out there teaching mechanics that are not as safe as they could be? You know it. I have seen some in my years that were so horrible they were scary.

Please dont take this as me 'Preaching' at you, this is not directed at you.

This is directed at anyone that works with young pitchers or who has a kid that pitches.

Here endeth the lesson.

Hal

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Hal, on the stride, I like to see the pitcher coming out to "toe touch" and then (at release of the ball) "heal drop."

It seems like pitchers that just "plop" the front foot out there, end up cutting the arm circle off, because their timing is off.

Is this correct?

 

[halskinner]

Hal, on the stride, I like to see the pitcher coming out to "toe touch" and then (at release of the ball) "heal drop."

It seems like pitchers that just "plop" the front foot out there, end up cutting the arm circle off, because their timing is off.

Is this correct?

Hi Amy.

I am not going to say correct or not correct. The best I can do is try and explain how I taught it and why.

Young female players have rubber cletes that do not dig in and grab like steel cletes do. Coming down on the ball of the foot is what I always taught, a much stronger point of the foot than the toes. The toes and the ball of the foot touch at the same time but the weight is on the ball of the foot.

The ball of the foot touches first but the heel comes down a couple of hundredths of a second later, as close to simultaneously as possible but still with the ball of the foot first. By doing that, once the foot is entirely on the ground, NOW the weight and momentum is absorbed by the ankle and knee and they are a much stronger 'Shock absorber' than the foot or toes.

You cannot, realistically, slow or stop an aggressive forward momentum with only the toes and the ball of the foot. Those only utilize the smaller muscles in the toes and foot. They must precede, however, the use of the larger muscles in the ankle, lower leg and upper leg to stop that momentum.

Hope that makes sense.

Hal

Additional; Any overextension of the foot (toes pointing down and ankle bent at a big angle) will usually result in the knee to bend at an overexaggerrated angle, too much of an angle to be able to normally slow down or stop forward momentum.

 

[remind]

I have some strange feeling when my arm travel past the 9:00 direction, deep inside the back of the shoulder and outside of upperarm.
It feels like some tiny electric shock, what would be wrong?

 

[ponytailpower]

“Sounds like we would have a difference of opinion on what is the correct and safest mechanics for a leap and drag pitcher.” Actually we are in agreement, Your description below is excellent and mirrors the issues and mechanics I stress when teaching this style. We only seem to be in disagreement as to when this style should be started. I feel that it requires more upper body strength then younger girls have which causes them to torque their upper bodies more than is advisable. Therefore, I believe that the use of a full leap and drag style should not be used by younger girls until they have matured and developed more upper body strength. But again, these differences typically come from my working with the prepubescent girls more and you tend to see more pubescent and post pubescent girls. As for mechanics it seems we are in complete agreement.

“I have seen very few step style pitchers that DID NOT come down on their stride foot with a lot of force and some with ridiculous amounts of force.” Again I agree with you that the forces generated by the necessary explosion off the rubber are tremendous, this is one of the main reasons why overuse injuries are so prevalent. A lot of people do not understand exactly how much force is generated in the lower extremities of a softball pitcher. I was a slingshot pitcher with abnormally powerful legs which was part of my problem when coupled with the extreme amount of pitching I was doing from a very young age.

“Many would even touch down with their knee straight and locked. Some were even taught to bend backwards and bring their stride foot up as high as their waist and then come slamming down to the ground out in front with a big loud stomp.

I cannot count how many young pitchers I have watched in games that would land with no opening of the hips and their stride foot turned to 90-degrees!!! Those still send chills down my spine. Talk about stressful to the hip and knee!!” It hurts just to watch them doesn’t it? It is even harder to not say something to them or their parents but I learned a long time ago that such help is often not taken kindly so it is best to keep your mouth shut and hope they do not get hurt.

“If taught correctly, the stride foot for a leap and drag pitcher should never get more than around 4 inches off the plane of the dirt. That part of the mechanics never changed no matter how aggressive, not aggressive, how long or short the stride was.

The stride knee also had a bend to it to also help absorb any shock.

These were one of the first things taught to my students at any age.”
Again, this is an excellent description of what to watch for with this style. With younger girls I have found they have a couple problems with this. The first being strength, they try to raise the leg up and use sort of a pumping action to get the power they need to leap.
The second is a growing problem. The feet grow first before the full body growth spurt and this tends to cause them to trip over their own toes until they grow into their feet. This makes it harder to keep the leap foot low and keep the shock out of the leg.

“Do overuse injuries exist? Yes they do. Do coaches nowadays have more knowledge on what is required for the safest mechanics? Good GOD I hope so! With all the knowledge available to them, they better be.

A kid growing very tall very soon in life can also have problems with the knees because of that fact alone.

WHEN TAUGHT CORRECTLY, the stride foot landing is very smooth and is NOT jarring at all.

What I would say to try and impress my beginners is "Never let your stride foot get any higher off the ground than if you were wearing roller skates".

Once they got away from a hard and jarring landing and started coming down soft and smooth, guess what other benefit they experienced? They started throwing alot more strikes. They normally had a big increase in accuracy and THEY KNEW IT TOO. Get rid of that jarring landing, you had a smoother arm circle as well and that equates to safer mechanics forthe shoulder complex.

Are their still instructors out there teaching mechanics that are not as safe as they could be? You know it. I have seen some in my years that were so horrible they were scary.”

“Please dont take this as me 'Preaching' at you, this is not directed at you.” I did not and do not take it as preaching. Actually glad that you have responded as such as it reinforces what I have been teaching and adds credence due to your knowledge and standing in the pitching community. I am just a small town coach trying to keep some young girls from making the same mistakes I made and getting the joy of watching them progress through the different level with some even getting to pitch in college (boy does that make me feel old!)

“This is directed at anyone that works with young pitchers or who has a kid that pitches.

Here endeth the lesson.”

 

[calgofo]

Hi Amy.

I am not going to say correct or not correct. The best I can do is try and explain how I taught it and why.

Young female players have rubber cletes that do not dig in and grab like steel cletes do. Coming down on the ball of the foot is what I always taught, a much stronger point of the foot than the toes. The toes and the ball of the foot touch at the same time but the weight is on the ball of the foot.

The ball of the foot touches first but the heel comes down a couple of hundredths of a second later, as close to simultaneously as possible but still with the ball of the foot first. By doing that, once the foot is entirely on the ground, NOW the weight and momentum is absorbed by the ankle and knee and they are a much stronger 'Shock absorber' than the foot or toes.

You cannot, realistically, slow or stop an aggressive forward momentum with only the toes and the ball of the foot. Those only utilize the smaller muscles in the toes and foot. They must precede, however, the use of the larger muscles in the ankle, lower leg and upper leg to stop that momentum.

Hope that makes sense.

Hal

Additional; Any overextension of the foot (toes pointing down and ankle bent at a big angle) will usually result in the knee to bend at an overexaggerrated angle, too much of an angle to be able to normally slow down or stop forward momentum.

IMO, at the risk of over quoting Mark H, a lot of the semantics of pitching is equivalent to the "re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic" analogy. A lot of what we see that is happening is a result of actions that occur much earlier in the pitch. That is to say, that when we see a stride foot come down too hard or at the wrong angle, many focus on the correction of that particular segment of the pitch without regard to the fact that what they are seeing is indeed incorrect but that it is a result of an action taken much earlier in the pitching sequence. IMO a lot of these errors are a result of a bad start. That is to say, particularly with L&D pitchers, that a lot of the problems we see at the end of the pitch actually started at the beginning.

Far to often, kids are told to start their pitch with an aggressive push from the rubber, that while is indeed correct, the prompt is given without regard to the direction in which they travel. In other words, we say push hard, explode off the rubber and other such verbal cues but many times we don't look for the direction in which they travel, and coach problems that result later in the pitching sequence.

It has been my experience, that far too often when we look at pitchers who are falling over their hip or struggling with the release point, etc., if we addressed their start, many of these problems wouldn't exist in the first place.

Simply put, if we told pitchers to take their momentum towards the catcher, many resultant problems would be resolved. Far too often, pitchers do indeed give us the hard push we ask for, but the direction they travel is straight up toward the sky rather than carrying their momentum towards their catcher which results in many of the problems we see at the end of the pitch.

Just my opinion. YMMV.

 

[madskilz]

Hal - Please describe Leap and Drag vs. Stepping. Also, please explain how stepping produces more impact on the landing foot than leap and drag? Just a little confused. It seems to me, having both types of pitchers on our team, that the stepper has significantly less impact. I do agree that hips open, foot closed would produce enormous pressure on the knee. I'm questioning now what style my kid has and if her back problems are a result.