- Apr 25, 2010
- 772
- 0
I see your point. Thankfully, every TB team my DD has been on, the coach has loved her "cutter". It's actually her go-to pitch much of the time.
Screwball Video
- Thread starter Ken B
- Start date
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If your DD is RH and has command of 3 good pitches I wouldn't even worry about learning a traditional screw.
So, the screwball is to "make the batter think an outside pitch is coming". First time I've heard this. I tell my students to open their stride (stride to the left of center) for an entirely different reason.The point of the leap left is the smoke and mirrors tied to the screwball. Make the batter think an outside pitch is coming, but hit the inside corner. The batter will usually either take the pitch for a strike (assuming the umpire is liberal on the inside, because they're fooled just as much as the batter), or the batter will reach a bit and hit into an easy out or foul off the handle of the bat.
I do believe that screwballs, when the proper spin is imparted on the ball, do drift or curve a bit. The good ones are not thrown straight, however, they do not "break", where a "break" defines late or sudden movement. Hell, anyone who has ever stood on a field with softball players and caught balls during infield practice knows that ball that travels straight is more of a rarity the a ball that curves or drifts
-W
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
Continue?........Continue what?..........Why would I want to continue discussions with someone who can make a statement like this:
About this clip:
There is absolutely no reason to debate or discuss anything with someone refuses or is afraid to admit the obvious just to protect themselves from Mr. "big bad" Right......
The nonsense needs to stop before it becomes an even bigger distraction to those of us who let the truth drive our passion for knowledge........
Sorry it didn't work out for you........
Who is this Mr. "big bad" Right? At what point does the forearm and hand rotate toward the center of the body and where is the palm down and back which by the way is the definition of IR/pronation. You are entitled to your opinion but not your own definition. That has been determined by those a lot smarter than you. I do see the angle of the arm circle coming into release and then the arm rotating away from the center of the body and palm up. Which by the way is the defintion of ER/supination. Sorry, you don't get it.Continue?........Continue what?..........Why would I want to continue discussions with someone who can make a statement like this:
About this clip:
There is absolutely no reason to debate or discuss anything with someone refuses or is afraid to admit the obvious just to protect themselves from Mr. "big bad" Right......
The nonsense needs to stop before it becomes an even bigger distraction to those of us who let the truth drive our passion for knowledge........
Sorry it didn't work out for you........
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- Feb 4, 2009
- 112
- 18
I see her hand going from palm facing 3rd to palm facing first after release. I believe that is internal rotation.
Tojo I also see what looks like an out to in arm path( I guess this is the angle you mention). I just see her arm having the ir and she only flips her hand palm up late in follow thru.
Tojo I also see what looks like an out to in arm path( I guess this is the angle you mention). I just see her arm having the ir and she only flips her hand palm up late in follow thru.
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You beat me to it.
In fairness to tojo, it can be quite difficult to discern what is happening with ghosted/blurred frames pulled from video. However, BoardMember does a great job in breaking these videos down to the key frames. I would say that the last frame, from the clip above, which shows the shoulder/bicep/forearm chain, pretty much implicates that I/R was the cause.
Although I'm just a newbie to softball, I enjoy the act of discovery and shedding light on body mechanics. What I would like to see is how the ball comes off of the fingers in the above pitch.
Thanks,
Adam
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,553
- 0
I think that some people have the misconception that if the arm circle is off plane and arcing, that the ball will continue to curve or arc after release. This is not the case, and belongs in the same category of urban myths as curving bullets shot from guns.
The ball will move in a straight path the moment it is released, in the direction that the ball was moving at the moment of release. Any curve, drift, or break is the result of the spin of the ball effecting aerodynamic forces while in flight.
So, if the pitcher is trying to step out just to allow for an arcing or elliptical arm path to create movement, then they are doing themselves a disservice and only accomplishing a shorter less-efficient arm circle robbing the pitch of speed.
-W
The ball will move in a straight path the moment it is released, in the direction that the ball was moving at the moment of release. Any curve, drift, or break is the result of the spin of the ball effecting aerodynamic forces while in flight.
So, if the pitcher is trying to step out just to allow for an arcing or elliptical arm path to create movement, then they are doing themselves a disservice and only accomplishing a shorter less-efficient arm circle robbing the pitch of speed.
-W
Star, I could be reading your post wrong.
Are you implying arm slot and wrist slot to tilt axis of the normal "conventional" grip is robbing the effectiveness of the pitch ( or any pitch ).
That's one thing I think lots of parents misunderstand. The harder/faster you throw a pitch the less it's going to break or break late. You have to experiment ( just like MLB pitchers do ) at what speed works best for you. By that I mean you want to see at what maximum speed do you have the most movement or break.
You "might" be able to throw a screw 70mph but it may only move 2". Drop that same pitch to 65mph and you may get 5" of movement.
Then most important is how effective is the experimental MPH's? At what combination of speed vs movement are you getting the most K's, called strikes, ground/fly outs, hits.
The below experiment was sparked by the disagreement regarding IR and the screwball:
Assuming the upper arm (humerus) can only IR through release, the question arises, "Can the forearm/wrist/hand ER during release?" For me the best way to look at this was to grab a couple pencils and some tape: one pencil held in my hand, and the other taped to the inside of my elbow.
I started by remembering that IR, in strict terms, means rotation of a limb towards the midline, or axis of the body. Thinking about the armswing, this became somewhat more complicated to me because the angles seem to change relative to the centerline of the body. To minimize some of the confusion for myself, I decided to look at both the change in degrees relative to the midline of the body, and the change in angle between the hand and elbow pencils. For the body, I used 2B as zero and home plate as 180 degrees. For the hand, I used both the change from the centerline of the body, and the change from the elbow pencil to the hand pencil. While my experiment may not have followed medical IR/ER definitions, it was fun and helped me see what happens during a pitch.
So, when goofing around with my pencils, I thought about the angle of the hand, relative to the centerline of my upper arm. I held one pencil in my hand, sticking out more so on the thumb side. I taped the other pencil to the inside of my elbow. (Right away, I noticed that my assumption above was correct—the bicep can only IR during the release.)
1) To start, I pointed my arm towards second base (9 o'clock) and oriented my hand so that pencil was pointing straight up (palm toward 3B.) I saw that the angle of my hand pencil was about zero degrees and the elbow pencil about 90. If I swung my arm down past my hip, all-the-while keeping my elbow/wrist locked so the relative angle (90 degrees) of the pencils remained the same, my palm wound up facing 1B when my arm was pointing to 3 o’clock. Both the hand and elbow pencils changed 180 degrees relative to the body and zero degrees change relative to each other. This test seems to follow what I observed in the screwball video with the dark shirt girl pitching straight on.
2) Next I started palm up at 9 o’clock and swung to a palm up/ HE follow through. Both pencils were now starting at about 90 degrees (0 degrees relative to each other.) During this swing, I found that when my hand passed my hip, the pencil was pointing to 2B (palm out.) At 3 o’clock, the palm was face up and the pencil pointed towards 3B. Both the hand and elbow pencil rotated 180 degrees relative to the body and stayed at 0 degrees to each other.
3) In the third test, I went from palm up to palm down (classic IR pitch.) At 9 o’clock, both pencils pointed 90 (zero to each other.) At finish, the humerus rotated 180 degrees. The hand rotated about 180 degrees relative to the elbow.
4) Last, I tried the bowling release with a HE follow through. The palm was facing the ground at 9 o’clock. Interestingly, I noticed the angle of the elbow was now about 70 degrees. At 3 o’clock, both the palm and elbow pencils were at the same angle relative to each other. I estimated that the palm pencil changed angle relative the elbow by about 160 degrees. The elbow pencil internally rotated about 160 degrees relative to the body. Relative to the elbow, the hand pencil externally rotated about 160 degrees.
In the end, I determined that the experiment was fun and enlightening overall, but could not replicate what exactly happens during a given pitch from 9 to 3 o’clock without HD slo mo video. I also decided that to really draw any conclusions that mattered to me, it would also be necessary to have perfect rotation as a reference. For me, none of the above would matter unless the ball was rotating exactly as intended.
I understand the smoke and mirrors of the “screwball.” I believe it can be effective regardless of break (I’ve seen both college and TB pitchers that had mostly spiral spin where the ball either traveled perfectly straight or drifted slightly back towards the plate!) They still seemed to get what they wanted out of the pitch.
My quest is to know if a true screwball spin is possible and to see how it is thrown. To me, the ultimate screwball would be one that broke 3-5 inches and slightly downward.
Edit: I switched the times around to be in compliance with PDT (Pacific Discussfastpitch Time)
Assuming the upper arm (humerus) can only IR through release, the question arises, "Can the forearm/wrist/hand ER during release?" For me the best way to look at this was to grab a couple pencils and some tape: one pencil held in my hand, and the other taped to the inside of my elbow.
I started by remembering that IR, in strict terms, means rotation of a limb towards the midline, or axis of the body. Thinking about the armswing, this became somewhat more complicated to me because the angles seem to change relative to the centerline of the body. To minimize some of the confusion for myself, I decided to look at both the change in degrees relative to the midline of the body, and the change in angle between the hand and elbow pencils. For the body, I used 2B as zero and home plate as 180 degrees. For the hand, I used both the change from the centerline of the body, and the change from the elbow pencil to the hand pencil. While my experiment may not have followed medical IR/ER definitions, it was fun and helped me see what happens during a pitch.
So, when goofing around with my pencils, I thought about the angle of the hand, relative to the centerline of my upper arm. I held one pencil in my hand, sticking out more so on the thumb side. I taped the other pencil to the inside of my elbow. (Right away, I noticed that my assumption above was correct—the bicep can only IR during the release.)
1) To start, I pointed my arm towards second base (9 o'clock) and oriented my hand so that pencil was pointing straight up (palm toward 3B.) I saw that the angle of my hand pencil was about zero degrees and the elbow pencil about 90. If I swung my arm down past my hip, all-the-while keeping my elbow/wrist locked so the relative angle (90 degrees) of the pencils remained the same, my palm wound up facing 1B when my arm was pointing to 3 o’clock. Both the hand and elbow pencils changed 180 degrees relative to the body and zero degrees change relative to each other. This test seems to follow what I observed in the screwball video with the dark shirt girl pitching straight on.
2) Next I started palm up at 9 o’clock and swung to a palm up/ HE follow through. Both pencils were now starting at about 90 degrees (0 degrees relative to each other.) During this swing, I found that when my hand passed my hip, the pencil was pointing to 2B (palm out.) At 3 o’clock, the palm was face up and the pencil pointed towards 3B. Both the hand and elbow pencil rotated 180 degrees relative to the body and stayed at 0 degrees to each other.
3) In the third test, I went from palm up to palm down (classic IR pitch.) At 9 o’clock, both pencils pointed 90 (zero to each other.) At finish, the humerus rotated 180 degrees. The hand rotated about 180 degrees relative to the elbow.
4) Last, I tried the bowling release with a HE follow through. The palm was facing the ground at 9 o’clock. Interestingly, I noticed the angle of the elbow was now about 70 degrees. At 3 o’clock, both the palm and elbow pencils were at the same angle relative to each other. I estimated that the palm pencil changed angle relative the elbow by about 160 degrees. The elbow pencil internally rotated about 160 degrees relative to the body. Relative to the elbow, the hand pencil externally rotated about 160 degrees.
In the end, I determined that the experiment was fun and enlightening overall, but could not replicate what exactly happens during a given pitch from 9 to 3 o’clock without HD slo mo video. I also decided that to really draw any conclusions that mattered to me, it would also be necessary to have perfect rotation as a reference. For me, none of the above would matter unless the ball was rotating exactly as intended.
I understand the smoke and mirrors of the “screwball.” I believe it can be effective regardless of break (I’ve seen both college and TB pitchers that had mostly spiral spin where the ball either traveled perfectly straight or drifted slightly back towards the plate!) They still seemed to get what they wanted out of the pitch.
My quest is to know if a true screwball spin is possible and to see how it is thrown. To me, the ultimate screwball would be one that broke 3-5 inches and slightly downward.
Edit: I switched the times around to be in compliance with PDT (Pacific Discussfastpitch Time)
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