Rise vs. Screw

[redhotcoach]

Langenfeld of UCLA known to throw a lot of screwballs dominated Missiouri in game 1 (5-2). Game 2 Missiouri just swung the bat inside and crushed her (9-1). I did notice everything on the inside half of the plate was called a screwball by the espn staff. We replayed alot of them at 1/15th and most didn't have much movement.

Quote from Jamia Reid of Cal after taking one of Langenfeld's screwballs for a ride.


"(Langenfeld) played on my travel ball team, so I knew she liked to throw a lot of screwballs," Reid said. "I hadn't ever batted against her before, but I knew to wait for the screwball, and I did."

 

[Hillhouse]

Anyone who says the ball doesn't actually move, whether it "screws", or spins sideways, or whatever, is delusional.It doesn't have to break a foot to be considered moving. I believe the screwball has become so popular because so many hitters have been taught to hug the plate to take away the outside corner. It would be natural to work on a pitch that potentially jams the hitter.

Ok, I'm dillusional.

There's a difference between angling a pitch inside and having it 'break' inside. Just as there is a difference between a drop and a low pitch. Using your rationale, a slowpitch softball pitcher throws riseball because his ball "moves" upward.

My point is, there is no need to do that drastic step to the left, in order to throw a ball to the right. It's not that complicated to "jam the hitter" without doing all that unnecessary stuff. All that does is puts the ball over the middle of the plate on it's way inside. If Florida's hitters weren't trying to impress ESPN viewers with their long foul balls, they could've capitalized on that in a very big way.

 

[Mark H]

It's about spin. I occassionally see a rh pitcher who spins a vertical axis and makes it break a little into a rh hitter but, like Bill says, not most. I'd rather see drop spin angled a little so it breaks a little into the rh hitter as it breaks down. Speaking of the drop with a little bit of screw movement, I'm told this was Fernandez's go to pitch on rh hitters?

 

[Hillhouse]

I can tell you that as a RH pitcher, a down/in pitch to a RH hitter is one of the best "finish" pitches someone can do. It's not the sexy riseball that everyone goes "oooooh" over but against good hitters, it's much safer and works well when done right.

It's incredibly easy to throw a inshoot drop with simple finger pressure on the ball. It's incredibly dangerous to throw an "outshoot" drop or any kind of "drop curve" that breaks over the middle of the plate. For that matter, it's dangerous to throw ANYTHING over the middle of the plate. And for what it's worth, I have the same argument with people who profess to have an amazing "drop curve" as I do with the screwball. Stepping to the right and pulling over your body to throw a drop to the outside of a RH pitcher is NOT a curve. It's an outside pitch, pure and simple. And in the same manner as the Screwball pitcher, the step to the other side is NOT NECESSARY. All it does is telegraphs the pitch and changes the pitcher's timing/rhythm.

 

[sluggers]

Talk about old school--Bill, are you sure you didn't learn from Harvey Sterkel?

Story about Sterkel

 

[Coach Stan]

What Bill is fighting here is that most people on this type of forum do not know or understand men's fastpitch. All they know is the women's game. So they feel what they see on tv, or at games is the only way to pitch.

Bill is correct that anything that goes east or west will get killed in the men's game. You have to have up and down with a great change. He also correct that the lady's are being taught how to swing rather than how to hit. I tried numerous times to get the coaches at the college level I coached with to understand the difference but they are completely tied into mechanics.

But I do disagree with Bill on one pitch which I threw which is the dropcurve or curvedrop. I never stepped over to pitch it and still got a good curve action with a good late drop movement. I threw a peel for speed a turnover for offspeed, rise, dropcurve, fast and slow knuckle. Did pretty good was competitive with those pitches.

I do teach the curve and screw because my students requests them. However, I make sure they understand the drop, rise and change are the pitches to concentrate on. To give an even better evidence of the up down method is more competitive; the kid from UW who was an up and down pitcher with an off speed pitch and she won the CWS.

 

[Mark H]

I can tell you that as a RH pitcher, a down/in pitch to a RH hitter is one of the best "finish" pitches someone can do. It's not the sexy riseball that everyone goes "oooooh" over but against good hitters, it's much safer and works well when done right.

It's incredibly easy to throw a inshoot drop with simple finger pressure on the ball. It's incredibly dangerous to throw an "outshoot" drop or any kind of "drop curve" that breaks over the middle of the plate. For that matter, it's dangerous to throw ANYTHING over the middle of the plate. And for what it's worth, I have the same argument with people who profess to have an amazing "drop curve" as I do with the screwball. Stepping to the right and pulling over your body to throw a drop to the outside of a RH pitcher is NOT a curve. It's an outside pitch, pure and simple. And in the same manner as the Screwball pitcher, the step to the other side is NOT NECESSARY. All it does is telegraphs the pitch and changes the pitcher's timing/rhythm.

I agree with all that except I have seen kids who could make it break, a little, straight in on a rh hitter. Not that I really like it. I'd rather have the ball breaking down, and a little in, on a rh hitter. Now I do like that rh drop curve breaking down and in on a lh hitter.

 

[Mark H]

What Bill is fighting here is that most people on this type of forum do not know or understand men's fastpitch. All they know is the women's game. So they feel what they see on tv, or at games is the only way to pitch..

It is true, at least for me, that almost all my frame of reference is the female game.

Bill is correct that anything that goes east or west will get killed in the men's game. You have to have up and down with a great change..

I have heard that many times and don't doubt it. Give me command on a rise, drop and a change with late movement and we can forget the rest.

He also correct that the lady's are being taught how to swing rather than how to hit. .

I wouldn't say I'm particularly impressed with most of the swings and swing instruction yet though I have seen some improvement.

I tried numerous times to get the coaches at the college level I coached with to understand the difference but they are completely tied into mechanics. .

I agree with you there except most I see are teaching goofy mechanics. The RightView stuff is helping some due to it's market penetration though I still have some reservations there. Many of them would be much better served to leave their top handful of hitters alone IMO.

 

[Hillhouse]

Mark stole my thunder a little. I had a longer reply but then my browser shut down and it lost. Imagine the swear words coming out of my mouth, then double it.

Stan, I think you will change your opinion in a few years. The men's game and style of play is infiltrating the women's game at an alarming rate. Look how many D1 schools are run by former men's major and/or US National team (men) players:

Ken Eriksen- South Florida
Mike Larabee- Wright State
Ehren Earlywhine- Missouri
Gordon Eakin- BYU
Shawn Rychcik- Boston U
John Bargfeldt- Tulsa to name a few.

There are even more as assistant coaches: Kyle Jamison (Syracuse), Cody Thomson (Utah), etc.

Moreover, the US National women's team employs Chuck D'Arcy as pitching coach now. Chuck was one of the all time great US born pitchers and has numerous Major All American awards, etc. When Ueno was beating the US team (2007?) the US women's team "sought help" from the men's team to pick her pitches and read her.. they did... USA didn't lose again. This is why Ueno was left out of the US tour prior to Beijing Olympics. Picking pitchers is a part of the women's game that is really lacking but, that too will change as more and more people (like the ones above) start implementing it.

Mark is right, Right View Pro is helping to eliminate the 'differences' in the genders too. What used to work for pitchers is becoming obsolete. Look how many HR's are hit during the WCWS and look at the stats of some of the kids playing in college... the numbers are ridiculous. This is partly because of the change in what's being taught regarding hitting. Now, I still think pitchers get away with way too much stuff but those changes are coming.. FAST. So the differences are going to fade.

 

[Mark H]

Picking pitchers is a part of the women's game that is really lacking .

Amen on the whole post but especially the above. I'd pay good money to sit there and listen as Chuck or someone like him taught how to read and pick pitchers.

On the hitting part and pitchers still getting away with stuff, I second that too. And I do like Right View. I just like Englishbey better.