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Magic
With connection being the primary goal of the swing until contact then the knob of the bat is in the center of the body at or around the belly button. The pull occurs IMO until the barrel of the bat is parallel to the ground coming around the back corner and the elbow is slotted. After that its just a matter of turn then, after contact, extension.
The hands just hold on to the bat until the wrist unhinge.
Elliott.
With connection being the primary goal of the swing until contact then the knob of the bat is in the center of the body at or around the belly button. The pull occurs IMO until the barrel of the bat is parallel to the ground coming around the back corner and the elbow is slotted. After that its just a matter of turn then, after contact, extension.
The hands just hold on to the bat until the wrist unhinge.
Elliott.
You keep saying this and I see something entirely different in video of elite hitters. I suppose people will have to decide for themselves.
They talk about hitting down through the ball too. Some of them. Others say the opposite. Pick your expert with a resume. Someone else can pick another. It's not surprising they talk about hands. That's where the nerve endings giving them their "feel" are. Elite athletes think they are doing all sorts of things. It's not important they know what they are doing. It's important they know how it feels to them. And learning is exactly that. Figuring out through trial and error what efficient feels like to that particular hitter. So tell me, who is this stringing us along?
Got to go now. May be next week possibly before I get back on. Some people say you are Richard but I don't think Richard could contain himself this long.
Magic
If the lower body is so slow explain to me how a martial artist can kick a person in the nose in less time than it takes to blink?
The lower body is slow only if you do not teach rotation and linear movement in ways to make the hitter realize they can be a lot faster with the lower body than they realize. That too takes practice to create quickness of the lower body.
Elliott.
If the lower body is so slow explain to me how a martial artist can kick a person in the nose in less time than it takes to blink?
The lower body is slow only if you do not teach rotation and linear movement in ways to make the hitter realize they can be a lot faster with the lower body than they realize. That too takes practice to create quickness of the lower body.
Elliott.
Here is an EXTREMELY interesting thread on the baseball side to test what you "see" that is different between the mlb sequence and the rising juco hitter.
the juco hitter is not somehow "resisting" with the upper body. When he "GOES", the linkage is loose and slips with shoulder flying out. hands do not stay back. no early batspeed/quick acceleration further back in swing plane, no rearward "blur", no immediate transition of bat motion to turning around knob,etc.
note also the difference in back foot action
note especially the difference in the shoulder action.
what you see in the pros is tilti of the shoulders that assists hands that are already turning the barrel between them to create the rearward blur which is resisting opening the hips so that rather than the linkage slipping, the upper body resists, keeping hands back and increasing coil, putting hands in control of setting swing plane.
the pros start with the hands and then tilt the shoulders to get early batspeed and late adjustability.
if you do not understand this, you will instead usually turn the shoulders and fly open like the kid does and your learning will be suboptimal becasue you are stuck between 2 incompatible body patterns.
as markh and elliott say, VERY different.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79328&page=2
see especially post #35 forward
the juco hitter is not somehow "resisting" with the upper body. When he "GOES", the linkage is loose and slips with shoulder flying out. hands do not stay back. no early batspeed/quick acceleration further back in swing plane, no rearward "blur", no immediate transition of bat motion to turning around knob,etc.
note also the difference in back foot action
note especially the difference in the shoulder action.
what you see in the pros is tilti of the shoulders that assists hands that are already turning the barrel between them to create the rearward blur which is resisting opening the hips so that rather than the linkage slipping, the upper body resists, keeping hands back and increasing coil, putting hands in control of setting swing plane.
the pros start with the hands and then tilt the shoulders to get early batspeed and late adjustability.
if you do not understand this, you will instead usually turn the shoulders and fly open like the kid does and your learning will be suboptimal becasue you are stuck between 2 incompatible body patterns.
as markh and elliott say, VERY different.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79328&page=2
see especially post #35 forward
Here is a good description by Englishbey of the PCR type swing which is based on shoulder action in the "shoulder turn" pattern.
Box versus No Box - Baseball Fever
QUOTE[Nyman]:"...at the initiation of the swing, the shoulders, arms, hands, bat move as a single unit i.e. connection."
Again, this is an entirely different pattern from the MLB type pattern where the shoulders are tilted after the hands have started turning the bat.
This is NOT how connection is established in the MLB swing which is better described as Candrea [Slaught/rightview] does for example with the "if you can throw, you,can hit" approach
Mixing these opposed patterns will greatly confuse learning. Focussing on turning the box this way INTERFERES WITH learning the mlb pattern.
Box versus No Box - Baseball Fever
QUOTE[Nyman]:"...at the initiation of the swing, the shoulders, arms, hands, bat move as a single unit i.e. connection."
Again, this is an entirely different pattern from the MLB type pattern where the shoulders are tilted after the hands have started turning the bat.
This is NOT how connection is established in the MLB swing which is better described as Candrea [Slaught/rightview] does for example with the "if you can throw, you,can hit" approach
Mixing these opposed patterns will greatly confuse learning. Focussing on turning the box this way INTERFERES WITH learning the mlb pattern.
Dropped in briefly. More later but Tom's opinion of the "MLB pattern" is just that, his opinion. The opinion of a medical doctor with little in the way of hitting students or personal ability to swing the bat. Nothing wrong with that. Just be aware of it as he proceeds to agree with every hitting guru in the world except Nyman and Englishbey who also happen to be two of the three websites I'm aware he's been tossed from so judge motivation for yourself and always... always compare anything anyone tells you to slow motion video of the best in the world.
these are my opinions based on many years of playing/swinging/coaching bb, most of them up to early college level woodbat, then coaching college during transition to metal bats with SCIENCE OF HITTING as main point of reference. then several years again trying to decide how this swing compared to "the softball swing" vs metal bat swing vs woodbat swing.
I think my opinions are valid and confirmed by similar experiences in teaching throwing [very important in fastpitch] and in studying golf and taking lots of bb fp and golf hacks.
with respect to video, I am explaining here what it is you see in the video, so look at the video and try to see the difference for example in the juco player and the pro.
try to learn to see how the pro is creating resistance/keeping the hands back/controlling the creation of a matching swing with the hands.
the mlb is a totally different way of "connecting" from the box/shoulder turning arm type pattern mark is describing.
I think my opinions are valid and confirmed by similar experiences in teaching throwing [very important in fastpitch] and in studying golf and taking lots of bb fp and golf hacks.
with respect to video, I am explaining here what it is you see in the video, so look at the video and try to see the difference for example in the juco player and the pro.
try to learn to see how the pro is creating resistance/keeping the hands back/controlling the creation of a matching swing with the hands.
the mlb is a totally different way of "connecting" from the box/shoulder turning arm type pattern mark is describing.
- Jul 11, 2008
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What college did you coach? How long ago was this that the transition from wood to metal took place?
ex-
I played freshman ball at Yale in 73. Woodbat. Non-ivy D1's had made freshmen eligible for varsity, Ivy's not until the following year or so. I quit to concentrate in another sport, soccer, but had a good arm and could hit so I spent some time as assistant throwing BP, imitating opposing pitchers and doing some gofer type stuff for hitting coach which was not much of a skills coach type position at that time. There was a lot of experimenting going on because that was when the metal bats became legal (74 or 75). Lots of camp stuff.
Another BB/Soccer guy who was a real star had just graduated, but came back to coach every once and a while, was Hank Greenberg's son who was a soccer all american but decided to try pro bb. I think he stayed in the minors. I learned more about soccer from him. not much was really known about hitting. I decided to concentrate on soccer in college and played pro for a season, then olympic development stuff which was leading up to the boycott year. Yuk.
Then to medical school at UVA where I assisted (volunteer)coaching both soccer and again the throw BP/work with hitters/camp type stuff.
I played freshman ball at Yale in 73. Woodbat. Non-ivy D1's had made freshmen eligible for varsity, Ivy's not until the following year or so. I quit to concentrate in another sport, soccer, but had a good arm and could hit so I spent some time as assistant throwing BP, imitating opposing pitchers and doing some gofer type stuff for hitting coach which was not much of a skills coach type position at that time. There was a lot of experimenting going on because that was when the metal bats became legal (74 or 75). Lots of camp stuff.
Another BB/Soccer guy who was a real star had just graduated, but came back to coach every once and a while, was Hank Greenberg's son who was a soccer all american but decided to try pro bb. I think he stayed in the minors. I learned more about soccer from him. not much was really known about hitting. I decided to concentrate on soccer in college and played pro for a season, then olympic development stuff which was leading up to the boycott year. Yuk.
Then to medical school at UVA where I assisted (volunteer)coaching both soccer and again the throw BP/work with hitters/camp type stuff.
