- Oct 14, 2008
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- 16
We are discussing the same thing here, quicknes of the hands and a good first move relates to improved bat speed, again just like in other posts we are trying to get to the same place, just using different terminoligy
Tim
Right bat speeds?
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We are discussing the same thing here, quicknes of the hands and a good first move relates to improved bat speed, again just like in other posts we are trying to get to the same place, just using different terminoligy
Tim
Can you expand on that Mark ? I think I understand what Cshilt is saying. Based on the analogy of Mens elite slow pitch hitters, they are able to gain appreciably more bat speed but to develop said batspeed they trade off having a longer time element in their swings relative to FP due to constraints in the difference in closing speeds of the ball. If I'm reading it correctly, your definition of "quickness" is the time from the first movement of the bathead into the swing plane though to ball contact. I guess my question is wouldn't there still be some threshhold of measurable batspeed in the quickness segment. Pardon my being dense.
I agree with all that except I would have said available reaction time rather than closing speed but certainly those two are related. Yes, in slow pitch you have plenty of time to create bat head speed. The one thing we never have enough of in fp is time. I've seen many kids with seven frame swings (seven frames on a standard 30fps video from first move of the bathead into the swing plane till contact) who possessed home run power. What they didn't possess was consistent success against better pitching. If it were all about batspeed, ML hitters would have the highest bat speeds around (bat speed here defined as bat head speed at ball contact). It's about a quick enough swing that you can watch the pitch long enough and still hit it with sufficient bat speed. Bottom line is get yourself all the bat speed you can with a four to five frame swing. First get the quick IMO.
Well I agree with the first move being critical but what does quick hands mean to you?
Barga_4 is my daughter. She actually got tested by a hitting instructer. Even though he told her it was a very good speed, she wanted to see what others thought. I will give you the whole story;
She's always been a good contact hitter, but she hits a lot of weak grounders and get's thrown out at first a lot. Therefore, she's never had a great batting average even though she strikes out very little. I knew there was room for improvement, so I contacted a hitting instructer. The first thing he did was look at her swing and then measured the "old" swings bat speed. The three swings were 60, 63, & 59. After that, he changed her hand path and first move. After 35 minutes of drills and instructions, he tested the "new" swing's speed. 68 and 69 were what was popping up. Pretty good improvement for less than an hour. Also, I will not mention who her hitting instructor is, but I know he's read this thread, even if he didn't realize who she was.
Let's just say this guy knows what he's talking 'bout!
CSHilt, Whatever the numbers and measuring protocol that's a good percentage improvement. DaddyO, how about posting a clip?
- May 13, 2008
- 824
- 16
What is the definition of quickness anyway other than a physiological observation. He has quick hands now put a time or speed to it and we have a measurement and then what can we do to improve that measurement and how much did it help?
What drills improve quickness or what drills or techniques can improve bat speed?
F=m x a or force equals mass times acceleration so what is the formula to improve quickness and how can we measure quickness?
Can we be quicker with a balanced bat or an end loaded bat and what difference does the hand path make as to being quick to the ball?
Why would we avoid using a device that would help determine what we do and how we do it to optimize our bat speed? Why would you use video or count frames if all we need to say to the hitter is be quicker to the ball? Will counting frames make improvements to the mechanics used in the swing?
I think we need to answer the first posters question about bat speed.
What drills improve quickness or what drills or techniques can improve bat speed?
F=m x a or force equals mass times acceleration so what is the formula to improve quickness and how can we measure quickness?
Can we be quicker with a balanced bat or an end loaded bat and what difference does the hand path make as to being quick to the ball?
Why would we avoid using a device that would help determine what we do and how we do it to optimize our bat speed? Why would you use video or count frames if all we need to say to the hitter is be quicker to the ball? Will counting frames make improvements to the mechanics used in the swing?
I think we need to answer the first posters question about bat speed.
Mark's explanation above is right on.
Are some using "bat speed" and "swing quickness" interchangeably?
Because I think they are two different concepts.
Bat speed is just that - how fast the bat is traveling.
SWING QUICKNESS is typically a reference to elapsed time required for the swing. Usually from launch to contact.
As Mark indicated, this is usually expressed by how many frames of 30fps video are required for the swing. Say 4-5 frames of video from front heel drop to contact (that would actually be good). Most youth hitters are more like 6-7 frames. Or worse.
Of the two measurements (bat speed and quickness), I believe quickness to be far more important. Good hitters have a range of bat speed somewhere between 60 - 75 mph, if it is measured at the bat TIP with a laser / reflective tape type device. (Somewhat less if it is measured by a radar type device, as there is no way to know what part of the bat the radar reads, and obviously, the closer you are to the handle of the bat, the slower it is moving.) But 60-75 of TIP bat speed is the range I have seen with college hitters. Since 60mph is plenty to put a ball over a 200 foot fence, the speed is important, but not crucial.
Swing QUICKNESS IS crucial, though. A 7 frame (of video) swing takes 0.06 seconds more elapsed time than a 5 frame swing. Doesn't sound like much, but the pitch travels 6 feet in 0.06 seconds.
Six feet is WAY too much pitch "read" to give up. A hitter starting her swing when the pitch is 6 feet further away is at a HUGE disadvantage.
There are lots of hitters with bat speed in the 70mph range that can't be successful at the college level, because it takes too long to get there. And lots of successful college hitters who generate less bat speed but accelerate quickly and hit their share of HRs.
The BEST college hitters seem to have 5-frame swings and get around 70mph of bat speed, too. But of those two objectives, I think you'd do well to worry about the 5-frame swing first, then add as much bat speed as you can.
If you don't know the swing quickness of your hitter, you should find out. Take a video from across the plate. Play it back frame-by-frame. Start counting when the front heel goes down. If the hitter doesn't stride, start counting when the hands move down/forward. If the total numer of frames is over 5, you have some work to do, IMO. And this almost NEVER is a measure of giftedness of the hitter. It is almost ALWAYS about mechanics. Which is good news, because it means you can fix it. And if you want to make a mark at the more elite levels, you'll have to.
Are some using "bat speed" and "swing quickness" interchangeably?
Because I think they are two different concepts.
Bat speed is just that - how fast the bat is traveling.
SWING QUICKNESS is typically a reference to elapsed time required for the swing. Usually from launch to contact.
As Mark indicated, this is usually expressed by how many frames of 30fps video are required for the swing. Say 4-5 frames of video from front heel drop to contact (that would actually be good). Most youth hitters are more like 6-7 frames. Or worse.
Of the two measurements (bat speed and quickness), I believe quickness to be far more important. Good hitters have a range of bat speed somewhere between 60 - 75 mph, if it is measured at the bat TIP with a laser / reflective tape type device. (Somewhat less if it is measured by a radar type device, as there is no way to know what part of the bat the radar reads, and obviously, the closer you are to the handle of the bat, the slower it is moving.) But 60-75 of TIP bat speed is the range I have seen with college hitters. Since 60mph is plenty to put a ball over a 200 foot fence, the speed is important, but not crucial.
Swing QUICKNESS IS crucial, though. A 7 frame (of video) swing takes 0.06 seconds more elapsed time than a 5 frame swing. Doesn't sound like much, but the pitch travels 6 feet in 0.06 seconds.
Six feet is WAY too much pitch "read" to give up. A hitter starting her swing when the pitch is 6 feet further away is at a HUGE disadvantage.
There are lots of hitters with bat speed in the 70mph range that can't be successful at the college level, because it takes too long to get there. And lots of successful college hitters who generate less bat speed but accelerate quickly and hit their share of HRs.
The BEST college hitters seem to have 5-frame swings and get around 70mph of bat speed, too. But of those two objectives, I think you'd do well to worry about the 5-frame swing first, then add as much bat speed as you can.
If you don't know the swing quickness of your hitter, you should find out. Take a video from across the plate. Play it back frame-by-frame. Start counting when the front heel goes down. If the hitter doesn't stride, start counting when the hands move down/forward. If the total numer of frames is over 5, you have some work to do, IMO. And this almost NEVER is a measure of giftedness of the hitter. It is almost ALWAYS about mechanics. Which is good news, because it means you can fix it. And if you want to make a mark at the more elite levels, you'll have to.
I'm not sure how you mena this, and whether I am agreeing or not agreeing. But I think video frame count is absolutely crucial (see above). WAY more important than bat speed, bith for hitting HRs, and for hitting for contact.
And I think a slow frame count is 99% about using less than ideal mechanics.
I also THINK I know what Mark means when he asks "what does 'quick hands' mean?" It seems to me the hands are pretty well synced to the body with all good hitters. Maybe they break away in the last quarter of the swing (moving toeards the pitcher). But even that seems to me to be a by-product of what has happened with the body previously. So I think the concept is a little bit of a misnomer.
60 is fine, 70 is better. Matters as to which type of device is being used, with the laser / reflective tape (on the bat tip) being most accurate, but also skewing the measurement slightly higher.
Personally, I think this is worrying about the wrong thing, though, and it sounds as if you and I disagree. But I would gladly trade bat speed for more swing quickness (less elapsed time). And I think lack of quickness from someone of even average athletic ability is much more a reflection of poor mechanics than of athletic giftedness. Whether of not I am right about that is irrelevant. If you have a 7 frame swing, you won't be very successful at the highest levels no matter how much bat speed you have.
post from an Olympic hitting coach that I work with and who works with Don Slaught.
Measuring bat speed just confirms hand path for me and if the swing is efficient because as pointed out you can have blistering bat speed and still not hit the ball. However we try to have an efficient good first move combined with bat speed and a linear weight shift. I was watching the home run derby and AP was not hitting the real long ball but he hit a few out with a bat speed that is know to be 86.99 MPH and CB hit one in OKC that was 465 feet last year with a 34" 26 ounce bat with a bat speed of 78 to 79 MPH.
From an article in GQ Sept. 06 How To Build A Perfect Batter, "A Texas hitting coach has installed several hundred thousand dollars worth of force plates at his facility to assess the "vector coordinates" of an athlete's application of energy to the ground. The plates calculate the power, speed, and direction of a hitter's angular momentum. He hopes to eventually to derive a sort of ideal force profile for hitters of every height, weight, and physique. What he's told me is that Pujols swinging his bat at the unimpressive speed of 86.99 miles per hour, actually generates considerably more force than the paltry Kevin Reese does at ninety-eight miles per hour."
AP gets in the Big Zone and stays on it for 5 feet per this study which is why even though his bat speed is considered low his ability to hit the ball is consistent.
"He sets up these really big ground reaction angles. Look how far both knees are inside of his feet when he sets up at the plate. He's practically pigeoned toed" and "By angling your back knee inside your foot, you redirect horizontally the vertical energy produced when you push off the ground. But I told that most hitters don't start from this position, which is why they stride: to bring the back knee forward."
AP actually strides about 3.5 inches from his wide stance and could hit the ball further if he strides further. He hits pretty well with a below average bat speed and stays in the Big Zone while doing it almost 5 feet, so how quick do you have to be?
Maybe 65 to 68 MPH with a good hand path will be a good measure of this girls success some day. Good vision also helps as TSW had 20/10 and Bustos has 20/9 and 20/8 in the other eye. Getting on the plane of the pitch as efficiently as possible and being on time seems to help or slow to load soft to step on a flexed front knee and flowing to the ball like water and never stopping and thinking to the ball and through the ball to extension.
As pointed out by Daddy O in less than hour a major improvement was made without weight training, or the purchase of a $300 bat just improvement in hand path and weight shift techniques and balance not posture.
Measuring bat speed just confirms hand path for me and if the swing is efficient because as pointed out you can have blistering bat speed and still not hit the ball. However we try to have an efficient good first move combined with bat speed and a linear weight shift. I was watching the home run derby and AP was not hitting the real long ball but he hit a few out with a bat speed that is know to be 86.99 MPH and CB hit one in OKC that was 465 feet last year with a 34" 26 ounce bat with a bat speed of 78 to 79 MPH.
From an article in GQ Sept. 06 How To Build A Perfect Batter, "A Texas hitting coach has installed several hundred thousand dollars worth of force plates at his facility to assess the "vector coordinates" of an athlete's application of energy to the ground. The plates calculate the power, speed, and direction of a hitter's angular momentum. He hopes to eventually to derive a sort of ideal force profile for hitters of every height, weight, and physique. What he's told me is that Pujols swinging his bat at the unimpressive speed of 86.99 miles per hour, actually generates considerably more force than the paltry Kevin Reese does at ninety-eight miles per hour."
AP gets in the Big Zone and stays on it for 5 feet per this study which is why even though his bat speed is considered low his ability to hit the ball is consistent.
"He sets up these really big ground reaction angles. Look how far both knees are inside of his feet when he sets up at the plate. He's practically pigeoned toed" and "By angling your back knee inside your foot, you redirect horizontally the vertical energy produced when you push off the ground. But I told that most hitters don't start from this position, which is why they stride: to bring the back knee forward."
AP actually strides about 3.5 inches from his wide stance and could hit the ball further if he strides further. He hits pretty well with a below average bat speed and stays in the Big Zone while doing it almost 5 feet, so how quick do you have to be?
Maybe 65 to 68 MPH with a good hand path will be a good measure of this girls success some day. Good vision also helps as TSW had 20/10 and Bustos has 20/9 and 20/8 in the other eye. Getting on the plane of the pitch as efficiently as possible and being on time seems to help or slow to load soft to step on a flexed front knee and flowing to the ball like water and never stopping and thinking to the ball and through the ball to extension.
As pointed out by Daddy O in less than hour a major improvement was made without weight training, or the purchase of a $300 bat just improvement in hand path and weight shift techniques and balance not posture.
