Right bat speeds?

[Slapper23]

the MLB pattern has "live and independent" hands as candrea and Slaught describe it which is very different from the non-MLB/"PCR"/"gate"swing that Mark is describing.

In the "live and independent hands" swing Tom talks about, the hands are very active and turn the bat along with the forearms to begin creating whip behind the batter out of the load position. In the swing Mark promotes, the hands are basically dead and only serve to grip the bat and support the bat, while relying on hard, brute force rotation of the hips/core/shoulders as a unit. In Mark's swing the bat is pulled into rotation/into the swing path and whip occurs at contact. Big difference between the ML swing and Mark's swing, IMHO.

Mike

 

[tom.guerry]

everything you need to know and much more from a baseball site, the first clip is a tripleAAA player, hiddengem/dave matrangas who participates in the thread:

Baseball Debate - Some Camps Aren't Afraid To Show Their Work....

 

[Slapper23]

Skeptic,

Good to hear from you again. You perception of my "animus" toward Mark and his seemingly patient and restrained response to me is similar to a referee missing the egregious first foul but spotting the pay back push. But no matter, I think your perception stems from being late to the party, so to speak.

I agree with Mark's point concerning bat speed vs. bat quickness. Where we quickly diverge is in the movements and snychronization of the swing....or IOW, how the best develop bat quickness, as well as, bat speed. I briefly pointed out the big picture difference in how we view the swing and I'll leave it at that. From your post, you seem to be in Mark's camp concerning the swing. I'm ok with that, it is what it is. I don't claim to have all the answers and I'm sure you don't either.

Mike

 

[tom.guerry]

One way to think of the connected (as opposed to a disconnected arm swing still prevalent in fastpitch) ,swings is PCR/no active handle torque (Nyman/Englishbey) vs MLB/early handle torque (which quickens swing/enhances control by resistance/prevents drag) vs hybrid swing as described by BM (board member) with late handle torque:



As BM posted in the "Some Camps Aren't Afraid To Show Their Work", his swing ideas are different from both PCR and MLB.

see

Baseball Debate - Some Camps Aren't Afraid To Show Their Work....

Richard/"teacherman" describes the MLB pattern better than anyone and the clips of Hiddengem before and after using this info (and after having poor results with Englishbey info) support this as well as anything on the internet.

HIDDENGEM can explain what he is doing differently and how it looks and feels and his latest stats are impressive:

AVG 'G 'AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS SH SF GIDP
.371 15 35 7 13 1 *1 *2 **6 *12 11 *0 *0 **2 *0 *01...OBP .532 SLG .629 OPS 1.16


BM initially knew the PCR principles didn't work, see his post #124 in

http://www.baseballdebate.proboards.com/....hread=12&page=9



---------

BM: "I'm going to "adjust and meld" the 2 methods. Adding top hand torque to drive the bat head through impact, and allow for the hands to make adjustments to the contact point.

"Oh believe me, I've tried to teach "spine angle" for low, inside, high and outside pitches. It doesn't work against live pitching. I'm convinced that the hands ultimatly determine the "spine angle of attack".

"Sure, my kids "blast the ball" off the pitching machine, tee and front toss, no matter where the ball is placed.

"But during live pitching in games, they cannot make "spine angle" adjustments fast enough to get on plane.

"When I look carefully at "EVERY ONE" of the clips on Siggy's website, and especially fastpitch, the top hand is absoluty driving the bat head though impact. If I try not to see it, I don't. But if I try to see it, it becomes obvious.

"When I get in the box, having played fastpitch for 15 years, I absolutely use my top hand to hit. Granted, I don't "roll it". I use it to provide torque, power and adjustment. I use it more for inside and middle then outside. I use it more for rise and less for drop. But I use it.

"PCR and the Rightview system completely ignore the top hand, and so have I, over the past 2 years. What an idiot I am!"

-------------

In addition to not following PCR, BM also does not follow the second engine aspect of the MLB pattern which Richard has described well and which has helped GEM chnage his swing and stay loaded in the back hip/etc.

BM does not understand the early handle forces that are applied to create and control resistance so the hands can stay back and control swing timing and plane matching that comes from early batspeed with late adjustability.

BM does not understand how the upper and lower body synch so you stay loaded in the back hip and stretch and fire/etc.

Another criticism of Richard's MLB swing description is that it violates "science". This is likewise uninformed.

Nyman initially pointed out the importance of the kinetic chain so that swings needed to include proximal to distal sequencing such that the next most distal link accelerates when the previous link gets to maximum turning speed/maximum angular momentum.

Initially Nyman said that handle torque was unimportant, but then he ran simulations and found it not only existed but was important to the point that in his e-book, he points out that the handle MUST be torqued before the turning torso gets to maximum turning velocity/angular momentum. Nyman still tries to say the top hand/back arm is not consciuosly active in doing this, a ridiculous statemnt if you have ever taken hacks.

Another important way to think of the swing mechanically is its resemblance to the double pendulum which is something Nyman and Englishbey and BM do NOT understand fully leading to the denial of the existence of "early batspeed".

The double pendulum or "flail" is a 2 piece whip which resembles a swing where the first/proximal/more massive pendulum is the torso and the second pendulum is the bat and the connection is the hinge at the wrist.

When the first pendulum turns, the second pendulum will first "LAG" behind until the first pendulum DEcelerates, THEN the second pendulum/"BAT" will swing out and seek alignment so that it hits max speed when it lines up with the first pendulum (lead arm/forearm connected to torso in case of baseball swing).

So when you take a PCR swing, the torso starts from a neutral position and because of the lack of resistance, the torso over turns and the bat lags and there is NO spatially early acceleration/contact.

When a MLB player swings, he takes an inward turn and loads the hands in and back and then keeps them there as the hands are used to apply turning force to the handle which prevents the bat from lagging and keeps the bat back while creating a stretch and fire of the torso as the hips turn forward. This stretch and fire gets the torso to max momentum spatially earlier and more quickly while the bat is prevented from lagging behind.

the hands monitor the resistance and control the synch of the chain and the aligment of the swing plane. The shoulders in the MLB swing are slaved to assisting the hands in turning the bat and connecting to the torso that is stretched between the shoulders and hips.

This is a totally different pattern with different and better results in MLB.

PCR is better than a disconnected swing and works with hot bats and off a tee, but it does not prosper in woodbat MLB vs skilled pitching.

 

[Cannonball]

First, why is a discussion from another message board which is an attack on a philosophy of hitting (PCR) contained in this discussion? What purpose would an attack on PCR serve when discussing a concept where no philosophy was discussed until Tom decided to be an rear again. UNBELIEVABLE.


As an FYI, my dd has spend considerable time these past few weeks working in very small groups (5 or less) with D-I coaches from around the country. I've tried to pick some of their brains with regards to video information that they glean from prospective players. Interesting enough they all count frames. THAT IS IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO SPARK AN INTEREST IN A VERY SHORT TIME THAT THEY ARE WATCHING. We are currently sending out video of her to college coaches who are attending the exposure tournaments she is playing in. While I believe the suggestion by Tom was that frame counting isn't valid, we only included 5 frame swings and 6 frame swings with wood. My dd hits most of the time with a baseball bat during practice. The response has been very good. So, I'm suggesting that measurements such as 5 frames does have a positive purpose in recruiting. JMHO!

 

[skeptic]

So, I'm suggesting that measurements such as 5 frames does have a positive purpose in recruiting. JMHO!

I'm not at all surprised to hear this is important to college coaches. It certainly is to me. One of the thinmgs I absolutely look for in recruiting. If a hitter needs to start her swing too soon, I KNOW she will struggle against college-level (D1) pitching, where change of speed is almost automatic, and movement is often late.

 

[Daddy O]

Hey Guys, please remember that this thread was actually started by a 13 year old girl that was overly excited about her bat speed improvement and simply wanted to know what other people thought. And as such, she reads this everyday to see if anything new and interesting has been posted. I think the best explainations were given in the first half dozen or so posts and all the trivial BS about whose style is better does not really concern her. She has found a style that she thinks will work for her and an instructor that she likes and wants to work further with. So she and I appreciate the knowledgable comments about her batspeed. Those of you that want to continue verbal abuse of each other please go hijack another thread!

Once again thanks to those that answered honestly. And Mark I would love to post a clip of her but right now I don't know how, nor do I care to post until she has worked enough that her swing is truly indicative of the swing she is learning. Right now she has regressed a little and bat drag is creeping back in. Another appointment with her instructor is in order.
Thanks.

 

[SBFAMILY]

Mark you are talking about about being quick to the ball with out regards to how do you measure quickness. Bat speed is only part of the equation now what factors play a part in speed would be interesting as we showed in our last camp by working on a flexed front knee, and slotting the back elbow keeping the hand stacked over the elbow or what we say staying strong on the back side and keeping the top hand loose and NOT lining up the finger knuckles.

The mere fact we improved it with every kid shows our increases to be about 10 to 18 percent improvements and took little time to make it happen and we were driving the ball harder which could be heard and seen in the cage.

Exactly what would you propose specifically that could produce these changes....specifically not in general terms that relate to bat speed.

Good post Daddy O, so we don't post over a the head of who is asking us the ?

 

[Mark H]

As an FYI, my dd has spend considerable time these past few weeks working in very small groups (5 or less) with D-I coaches from around the country. I've tried to pick some of their brains with regards to video information that they glean from prospective players. Interesting enough they all count frames.

Thanks for sharing that. I wonder how long that's been standard procedure. Good to hear.

 

[Mark H]

Once again thanks to those that answered honestly. And Mark I would love to post a clip of her but right now I don't know how, nor do I care to post until she has worked enough that her swing is truly indicative of the swing she is learning. Right now she has regressed a little and bat drag is creeping back in. Another appointment with her instructor is in order.
Thanks.

I look forward to it. And I would certainly keep in mind that every swing is a work in progress.