Right bat speeds?

[tom.guerry]

As you work on reconciling seemingly conflictual/paradoxical statements, details become important and experience with other sports and motions can be illuminating.

An example of such detail is to look at Williams hands as he is describing wrist snap as opposed to wrist roll (as ken mentioned) on the overhead view through contact in the summary link above.

One interesting detail is how Williams points the index finger of the top hand at contact.

What does that mean ?

I think what it means is he is using that part of the top hand to monitor handle "lag" as opposed to gripping the handle, the actual grip being sustained more by the other fingers, especially 3rd and fourth fingers as described in gold for example.

Similarly, the "hitting" style of GOLF involves early/active torquing of the handle similar to the MLB hitting pattern, although in MLB, the torque is even earlier.

Here is a golf description from The Golf Machine (TGM/Homer Kelley) hitting type golf swing - rgister for "free" for forum access:

Driver Leaking Badly to the Right - Page 2 - LynnBlakeGolf Forums

Ted Fort (describing the mechanics of hitting as opposed to swinging):

"Lag PRESSURE occurs when a greater force than the momentum of the clubhead is applied to the handle, instead of the 'drag and hold.'[swinging] 'Drive the handle' is the feeling I have now [hitting]. Remember, in hitting, we're not trying to outrun anything. We're trying to drive the handle so far ahead of the ball that the clubhead couldn't catch up, even if it wanted to do so."

--------

So, in "swinging" (moving bathead primarily by pulling knob), you drag and hold the hinge angle which is an entirely different way of moving the club from hitting where you drive the handle.

TGM further describes "pressure points" on the hands where power generation (by a set of power accumulators) is felt.

The base of the index finger of the top/back arm hand is where the lag is felt/monitored.

The pad of the thumb of the same hand is where the hitting pressure is applied.

very similar hand control of swing between golf "hitting" and MLB "hitting".

 

[Cannonball]

Barga_4 and DaddyO, I hope you can glean some helpful stuff from yet another thread that has deviated from the original topic. You already know bat speed ratings and so, you have a start. Wellphyt was right in stating that Bat speed is one factor but not the only factor. My daughter had one of those moments where she realized that the girls she played against could not beat her with a fast ball. Then, we had to work on other things. It will always be that way if improvement is the goal. I'd recommend that you find instructors in your area that interest you and then, watch them give some lessons before committing to them.

Ken, I too have read the studies on overloading and agree that the most recent studies have shown a decrease in bat speed. Of course, an off season workout of overloading and underloading has shown merit.

I've been a good boy and so, it's been hard for me to read how one who has never played in the Major leagues knows how a major leaguer feels. I've coached several young men who have played professionally and one or more have made it to MLB. In discussions with them on hitting, I've never had a sense that they could convey to me their "feel." Then again, I'm not Ivy League. I do however really coach. People that is -- hands on. Of course we've been through that MLB swing argument before and so...

If I could, DaddyO, I'd recommend you do a search on this site and others on Board Member's thoughts. Cut and paste them and save them. You'll have a wealth of information to think about. Ssarge has also been through it. While Tom takes shots at them by saying in other posts that we don't know how good those hitters could have been if they were working with him and his MLB Swing, those guys have really put players at several very good institutions. So, you have a daughter. I hope you see the soundness of my recommendation. Of course, you have a journey to take much like all the rest of us and it isn't one size fits all regardless of what others imply. Per my daughter, she does fine doing what we do. Perhaps a little better than fine. Of course there is always going to be room for improvement.

DaddyO and Barga_4, this site can be real helpful if you can determine those who post to be helpful and those that post with agendas and egos.

 

[Ken Krause]

Cannonball, I agree the ultimate test is whether it works on the field. Does the hitter improve after being taught certain mechanics? Does she hit the ball harder and more consistently than she did before? If so, that's awesome. If not, it's time to do something different -- no matter what anyone says. It's also the most important measure -- moreso than bat speed, or frame counts or anything else. Success at the plate is what keeps players playing.

 

[tom.guerry]

daryl/b25/cannonball -

No need to take things so personally.

If you say we need to look at clips of the best and say the best are the MLB hitters, then you need to figure out what they are doing. they are controlling the swing with hand/hand pressure which includes early application of turning force on the barrel.

Here is a thread with descriptions of/by Jim Booth and an excellent golfer Kevin G who is getting good results Backwards chaining/starting with hands/release with his kid:

Baseball Debate - Login

Here is the same point in a golf thread, pressure point#1 is the heel of the top/back arm hand, pressure point #3 is the base of the index finger. The hands control the body, a "hand controlled pivot"

Feeling the Right Elbow Leading - LynnBlakeGolf Forums

Ted Fort: "I have to scream the same thing......... You must strike the ball with the pressure points. #1 drives (direct drive), #3 receives (indirect drive).
You can't get lost in the subtle difference between 10-3-A and 10-3-B, until you really feel the lag pressure. The body will do amazing things and will make subtle changes without any concious thought.

"How often would you think of the position of your wrist, elbow, or knee when asked to throw a ball to first base? Your body simply creates pressure against the back side of the ball in the most efficient manner that it had done before."

and

Lynn Blake:"The Pivot -- specifically the Downstroke's Right Shoulder Turn as actuated by Hip Action -- Loads the Power Package for both Hitters and Swingers. The difference is that the Hitter's Drive Loading Loads the Right Elbow and the Swinger's Drag Loading Loads the Left Wrist.

"The Hitter's Load is against both Pressure Points #1 (the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb) and #3 (the meaty part of the Right Forefinger). In most instances, the pressure is equally divided between the two, with #1 driving the Left Arm and #3 driving the Clubshaft. After the Pivot -- specifically the slow-moving Right Shoulder -- has done its work, the Right Elbow (actuated by the Right Triceps) drives both #1 and #3. Hence my Hitter's Dictum:

"Hit the Ball with 'One and Three.'"

 

[Ken Krause]

ken -

I would say that something as complex as the MLB swing is incapable of complete/objective description and furthermore, the best (still incomplete) verbal descriptions will be paradoxical. Then the best way to explore the meaning is to try to reconcile the paradox.

Work on your own to figure out, for example, quick hands and wrists and little snap after contact.

then compare your findings to others exploring the same issues.

rinse and repeat.

of course, this requires having faith/trust that the author (Williams) knew what he was talking about.

If you find a seeming contradiction and can not work it out/reconcile it, in my opinion the problem is you are not performing or feeling the execution of an MLB swing.

the most important things to focus on in my opinion are the paradoxes.

another thing he said was to hit with top hand wrist unbroken or at least before wrists roll.

what did he mean by that ?

or was he just confused ?

or is it better to just ignore seeming contradictions ?

You're defending the undefendable, Tom. It's either correct and consistent or it's not. No such thing as a paradox if you're trying to take the advice of someone and apply it. If they're not clear and consistent in what they say it cannot be applied.

I have no doubt Ted Williams knew how to swing a bat without having to apply conscious thought. That much is clear by his performance on the field. Whether he understood what he was doing on a conscious level, or could explain it to mere mortals, is up for debate.

He wouldn't be the first to say one thing while doing another. Often great athletes have difficulty articulating exactly what they do because it comes so naturally to them. It's also why they often fail to make the transition to coaching. They just don't get why the rest of us can't get it.

I really don't think my inability to reconcile contradictory information is the result of my lack of understanding of the MLB swing. It's that the information contradicts itself from one clip to the next. When you say that it's like saying if someone gives me directions to the store, tells me to turn left the first time, then right the next time they give those same directions, it's my lack of driving prowess for not being able to get to the store. Nope. It's that their directions were unclear and contradictory. To say anything else is to ignore the facts.

 

[tom.guerry]

Ted Fort on how to hit vs swing:

"The question is: How does the clubhead stay behind the hands? The simple answer is: The grip has to have greater pressure placed against it than that of the clubhead's momentum. You don't 'sustain the lag' by keeping the clubhead from passing your hands. You keep pressure in the pressure points of the hands that is greater than that of the energy of the forward moving clubhead.
When I stopped trying to keep the clubhead behind everything and started trying to keep the grip in front of everything, my game changed forever."

So for example, there is a major difference between "holding the hinge" and "driving the handle".

SO how did Ted "hit with the top hand wrist unbroken" ?

Do you try to hit with the top hand wrist unbroken ?

How does that produce "quick hands/wrists" ?

Why does that require "hips leading hands" ?

And before that , cocking the hips and cocking the hands ?

And how does it then result in a "slight upswing" ?

With hands and forearms providing direction ?

i doubt there are any internal contradictions in what Ted says.

 

[Cannonball]

daryl/b25/cannonball -

No need to take things so personally.

If you say we need to look at clips of the best and say the best are the MLB hitters, then you need to figure out what they are doing. they are controlling the swing with hand/hand pressure which includes early application of turning force on the barrel.

Here is a thread with descriptions of/by Jim Booth and an excellent golfer Kevin G who is getting good results Backwards chaining/starting with hands/release with his kid:

Baseball Debate - Login

Here is the same point in a golf thread, pressure point#1 is the heel of the top/back arm hand, pressure point #3 is the base of the index finger. The hands control the body, a "hand controlled pivot"

Feeling the Right Elbow Leading - LynnBlakeGolf Forums

Ted Fort: "I have to scream the same thing......... You must strike the ball with the pressure points. #1 drives (direct drive), #3 receives (indirect drive).
You can't get lost in the subtle difference between 10-3-A and 10-3-B, until you really feel the lag pressure. The body will do amazing things and will make subtle changes without any concious thought.

"How often would you think of the position of your wrist, elbow, or knee when asked to throw a ball to first base? Your body simply creates pressure against the back side of the ball in the most efficient manner that it had done before."

and

Lynn Blake:"The Pivot -- specifically the Downstroke's Right Shoulder Turn as actuated by Hip Action -- Loads the Power Package for both Hitters and Swingers. The difference is that the Hitter's Drive Loading Loads the Right Elbow and the Swinger's Drag Loading Loads the Left Wrist.

"The Hitter's Load is against both Pressure Points #1 (the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb) and #3 (the meaty part of the Right Forefinger). In most instances, the pressure is equally divided between the two, with #1 driving the Left Arm and #3 driving the Clubshaft. After the Pivot -- specifically the slow-moving Right Shoulder -- has done its work, the Right Elbow (actuated by the Right Triceps) drives both #1 and #3. Hence my Hitter's Dictum:

"Hit the Ball with 'One and Three.'"

Taking things personally? I'm not taking anything personally. Tom, you continue to take things off course when these are real people/players/parents asking for help. Your type of help, demonstrated many times, complicates matters to the point that I'm sure they don't understand any point you are trying to make. That point is also often not a part of what the intent of the thread is. For example you constantly bringing up one particular hitting philosophy when it isn't found in a thread/the thread in many cases before your post. If you truly want to help these people then speak in terms that they understand which for 99% is not to run off in a diatribe of 1000 words and bring in ...

By the way it is Darrell not daryl. Tom, I could care less whether you and I like or respect each other. I do hope to help these posters like the young lady who started this thread IF they want what I have to offer. If not, I'm not trying to change the world. BTW, if you haven't noticed, I've stayed out of many of these arguments but found the ramblings in this thread irritating because this is a young lady asking for advice and help and not a "camp member" pushing another agenda because they hadn't fed their egos that day. Again, I'm also going to mention that I have no clue about what a MLB player "feels." I'm still trying to find out how you do. Is it a Jedi Mind Trick? Are you psychic? Did you participate, like Doctor Beckett, in some Quantum Leap experiment gone bad?

Daddyo and Barga-4, measuring bat speed, frame counting on video at 30 feet per second, finding drills THAT FIT FLAWS IN YOUR SWING, all are a part of the key to improvement. I'd also recommend that you just go swing the bat and have fun. My dd has certain drills she loves to do. They are fun, are exaggerations of certain aspects of the swing but she likes them (Neck swings for one) and so, she wants to hit. I'd also recommend that anything improvement will also necessitate core work to improve her strength. My dd started with plyometrics at an early age and so, we had to be careful of the jumping etc. Now, she has a very tough routine she does. Here is a picture of her pitching. I don't know if it will be large enough for you to see her arms etc. However, she is a powerful young lady now.

Finally, and again, there are several members on this site but others on other sites as well who don't mind helping. They belong to different hitting camps but are good people. If you find some posters who make you think and open up ideas for you, pm them and I'm sure you will find help.

Take care,

Darrell

 

[tom.guerry]

darrell-

I am a "believer" in patterns which result from everyone's body being preprogrammed to some degree to self organize/develop into one of several options given a certain challenge to be solved. that is why there are universals/absolutes approaches.

The choices are very different and should not be mixed.

do you want PCR adjust by bend at waist ?

BM does not like that.

BM likes "late top hand".

So are you recommending PCR or BM style or just try a lot of stuff and it will fit differently for each (no universals approach) ?

Or have you ever tried "early top hand" ?

Or are you just here to talk trash ?

 

[Cannonball]

Talk trash? I haven't "talked" anything and you can't find a post on this sit where I go out of my way promote anything unless attatcked or defending an absolute untruth. Simply put, I do. In "doing" I have players who have down well. That's enough for me.

 

[BoardMember]

do you want PCR adjust by bend at waist ?

BM does not like that.

Don't confuse what I "don't like" with what I don't believe is a "teach"......Waist bend happens......As part of an overall adjustment process........

BM likes "late top hand".

As does Ted Williams and Barry Bonds..........

As does Slaught........"The swing (hammer) starts slow, and is released when it reaches the nail"..........."You wouldn't swing the hammer hard from the begining and hope to hit the nail on the head"...........

He is right.......and an MLB hitter.........As opposed to guessing from behind a keyboard........

He is also right about the rear elbow starting/stopping the swing......And it's not because he agrees with me........

Study/Feel any swing that is checked, or delayed when squaring a change-up.....

The difference in understanding what these guys are saying comes from studying by swinging, teaching, and analyzing video........Not just the latter....