Right bat speeds?

[Mark H]

Mark you are talking about about being quick to the ball with out regards to how do you measure quickness.?

I use frame counting. First move of the bathead into the swing plane till contact looking for four to five frames on a standard 30fps video. Double that if you are lucky enough to be working with 60fps of course. Here's a clean one. I count five frames here. You can down load it, open it in quicktime and count the frames using your cursor keys to move back and forth. This is a standard swing where heel plant can be used as well as first move of the bat head into the swing plane. MPEG4 6 of 16, Fastpitch

Bat speed is only part of the equation?

Agreed.

now what factors play a part in speed would be interesting as we showed in our last camp by working on a flexed front knee, and slotting the back elbow keeping the hand stacked over the elbow or what we say staying strong on the back side and keeping the top hand loose and NOT lining up the finger knuckles.

The mere fact we improved it with every kid shows our increases to be about 10 to 18 percent improvements and took little time to make it happen and we were driving the ball harder which could be heard and seen in the cage.

I agree with measuring and quantifying improvement as you do with bat speed. No doubt you are doing great work. I hope to convince you to try frame counting as part of your measuring.

Exactly what would you propose specifically that could produce these changes....specifically not in general terms that relate to bat speed.

Identifying and modifying inefficiencies is my answer. The medicine depends on the problem is the analogy. That may sound like a side step but I really don't do the same thing with every kid. I look for inefficiencies. What movements are taking up time without helping. What movements are causing them to have a poor swing plane and not make good consistent contact. If they are a mess and it's a total redo, I start with posture. Analysis

 

[SBFAMILY]

Back to the thread...to determine which bat could be used by what hitter to optimize the greatest force to be applied one would or possibly should know how fast they could swing the bat measuring the tip speed is not how we do it. The tee is set exactly in the middle and two inches in front of home plate and we measure off from the back corner of home plate a bat length off the plate and the Swing Speed Radar is lined up behind home plate about 5 feet from the tee. The hitter swings at the top of the tee every time to establish a base line and then we begin to hit balls and where did the ball hit the net. (Below is our hitting zone) Now which bat as to end loaded or balanced and then what weight could help us understand if the hitter could use the bat more effectively so we could produce the best results.

This bat speed will also help us determine if the batting technique being taught by us would increase or decrease the bat speed and the data should support if the hand path can generate the bat speed. We have done it enough so we feel we have a pretty good model or system that supports what we do. If the bat is too heavy you will not be able to swing the bat effectively through the zone no matter how quick you think you might be.

Using race cars and obtaining 225 MPH is apples and oranges and by chance the dragster is linear and the race car is rotational. LOL

Each athletes reflexes will be different so quick to the ball is no more than a mere observation however it can be measured by doing the following:

Take a meter stick and have the hitter open the thumb and index finger and straddle the meter stick. Then the person holding the meter stick drops the stick and the hitter attempts to grab it by closing the thumb and index finger. The hitter tries to catch it and the length the stick travels before they grab it is their reaction time.

The same can be done with a crisp dollar bill, hold it and drop it from the bottom/ end being lined up at the top of the hand/ fingers and most will be able to grab it. Then half way or Washington's head and most will not be able to grab it. By doing eye hand coordination drills you could begin to see the improvements you could make on their reaction time and the same could be said for bat speed improvements.

The next huge point is judging the speed of the ball so our reaction time for actually hitting the ball can be practiced and how do we get into the Big Zone and be on time to hit the ball. Then when we hit the ball where is it, the ball actually going based on the plane of our bat angle. Our net is marked so we have an idea based on where the ball hits the net where the ball trajectory would be. We place our tee or soft toss from about 4.5 feet minus 12.5 inches rearward for our window to hit the ball in from the net and hit it into our zone by marking the net at 51(about 26 degrees) and 39 inches (about 10 degrees) horizontally with a vertical center line so we can see if the ball is left or right of center or above or below our zone.

The flex of the front leg knee is also a timing mechanism of sorts as it can allow the momentum to still move linear while we are making our decision to hit the ball and allows us to wait longer to make that determination. Again Albert P does not have blinding bat speed however he stays in the zone for up to 5 feet and only swings the bat 86.99 MPH. He is efficient in his hitting mechanics however. Bustos stays in the Big Zone 72 inches and most kids are about 35 to 45 inches before we make any corrections. What is his frame count compared to Barry Bonds?

Bat speed is not the answer it is a tool to determine if what you are teaching is making it worse or better and is associated closely to hand path and how we get to heel plant and when we get to heel plant.

With what we have described and seeing a bat speed improvement like Daddy O's daughter had what could quickness do verses hand path and what data was obtained is relevant and then what could be done to increase the bat speed so she could use a heavier bat or an end loaded bat as we progress and I think that is what she was asking until certain people got the thread off track.

This was sent to me , because they wanted to respond to this post. He is one of the top hitting instructor's that I have learned much of what I know from.

 

[Mark H]

Using race cars and obtaining 225 MPH is apples and oranges.

Exactly! So too is discussing batspeed versus quickness.

and by chance the dragster is linear and the race car is rotational. LOL.

Well I hadn't thought of that. You have a point.

Each athletes reflexes will be different so quick to the ball is no more than a mere observation however it can be measured by doing the following:

.

I'm not talking about reflexes though that is of course another factor. I'm talking about, once the decision is made and the bat starts into the swing plane, how long does it take the hitter to get the barrel to the ball.

Did you look at the Rivera clip and see how many frames you count?

 

[SBFAMILY]

A response from a hitting coach that works with many students and knows the in and outs of RVP.

Bat speed is not the only measure of a swing and neither is five frame counting they are tools when combined should help improve a hitter!

If as an instructor you could improve your students swing speed and mechanics in less than 35 minutes and validate the improvement would you be curious what aspects in the mechanics actually allowed the improvement? How would you know? If they could keep the bat in the Big Zone longer wouldn't you wonder why or how? If you are counting frames you should be able to measure the Big Zone correct?

I am sure 5 frame counting is a valid method to measure a swing and is another tool however do you really know what affects the "quickness" and what affects the "5 frame swing" and what "affects the bat staying in the Big Zone longer by as much as 20 inches or how to achieve it and increase the speed?

Measuring bat speed off the tip is not an accurate way of measuring bat speed and the Swing Speed Radar unit does not do that. Call Al Dilz as he designed it and understands the difference. Estimating the incoming speed of the ball helps you to build your data base of being able to judge your release to the ball or start your swing. By using a radar unit and having a hitter call out how fast they think it was verses what it, the speed really is helps them build a data base. We point out to the kids when first learning how to drive being able to judge the speed of the on coming car allows you to merge into traffic without disrupting the flow of traffic.

When you ask a hitter did you feel the difference in that swing and they look at the radar unit and see a change of lets 5 MPH because they flexed or sat on their lead knee and their linear weight shift felt stronger and they see it in a mirror and they smile and say, "I felt it that time!"

When using the 150 MPH air cannon in 2004, tracking the ball correctly by giving the head a head start was taught and then having the bat in the zone was next so you could begin to have the brain and the hands start predicting where the flight of the ball would be based on the visual information being put into your data base and then they increased the speed.

One final thought, if you could swing an end loaded bat or a balanced bat in 5 frames which one would you recommend for the hitter you are working with to use in a game? Remember 5 frames is 5 frames and is your gold standard to live by. Cover up your speedometer on your car for a week and see how good you are at estimating your speed.

 

[tom.guerry]

In the MLB pattern, the bat is in the zone longer because of "early batspeed" (hands stay back/resist more, they accelerate more quickly giving a combo of longer read time early batspeed and late adjustability/"getting on plane early"). This early batspeed is not possible in the PCR or late handle torque patterns.

The pattern is orders of magnitude more important than frame counting.

Frame counting may make sense within a pattern/once the hitters has been sorted into a particular pattern by analysis, but even here in the MLB pattern the swing is so quick that the error in picking the beginning of the swing and in adjusting for location makes the counting mostly useless.

 

[Mark H]

Bat speed is not the only measure of a swing and neither is five frame counting they are tools when combined should help improve a hitter!

Agreed.




.

 

[Wellphyt]

Barga: Assuming you have sound mechanics, your batspeed will be determined by the weight of the bat you're swinging. Ted Williams studied the issue of batspeed vs. bat weight and determined that batspeed was more important.

I would be careful about getting too caught up in measuring batspeed. Hitting is suppose to be fluid and loosey-goosey. Trying to consciously swing faster and harder will very likely have the opposite effect and slow your swing down. Epstein has stated that when he played, the worst looking bodies in the locker room belonged to some of the best hitters.

Up until the steroid era, something like 45 of the top 50 homerun hitters in baseball of all time weighed 185 pounds or less. Hank Arron and Willie Mays among them. How did they do it? How did these hitters generate so much power without modern day strength training information, steroids and high tech bats?

They did it by seperating their upper and lower body and creating a sling shot effect. Players like Ted Williams were really good at stretching their upper and lower body to create batspeed. Today's steroid inflated MLB hitters don't stretch as much as the old timers because they are too think and bulky. As modern day baseball players deflate, they will likely have to compensate by working on creating more seperation.

Because of the hot bats and 200 foot fences in fastpitch, many of the bigger players can hit homeruns with less than ideal mechanics. The smaller you are, the more important mechanics become.

 

[Ken Krause]

Interesting, but it seems like two of the clips contradict each other. He talks about the importance of quick hands and wrists in the second link, but then in the last link he says the wrists only snap a little until after contact. If that is true, what would you need quick wrists for?

The fourth clip looks to me like very little is being done with his hands through most of the swing. They are pretty well tied to his back shoulder until most of rotation is completed -- about three quarters of the way through as you look at the side view.

I also thought it was interesting that he talked about overloading -- swinging a heavy bat -- as a way to build batspeed. I think that's pretty well been disproven. A combination of overloading and underloading is preferred -- overloading for strength, underloading for quickness. Overloading alone, if I recall correctly, actually tends to make you slower.

So you have to be careful what you take from anyone -- even one of the greats.

 

[tom.guerry]

ken -

I would say that something as complex as the MLB swing is incapable of complete/objective description and furthermore, the best (still incomplete) verbal descriptions will be paradoxical. Then the best way to explore the meaning is to try to reconcile the paradox.

Work on your own to figure out, for example, quick hands and wrists and little snap after contact.

then compare your findings to others exploring the same issues.

rinse and repeat.

of course, this requires having faith/trust that the author (Williams) knew what he was talking about.

If you find a seeming contradiction and can not work it out/reconcile it, in my opinion the problem is you are not performing or feeling the execution of an MLB swing.

the most important things to focus on in my opinion are the paradoxes.

another thing he said was to hit with top hand wrist unbroken or at least before wrists roll.

what did he mean by that ?

or was he just confused ?

or is it better to just ignore seeming contradictions ?

 

[Jeff_H]

ken -

i would say that something as complex as the mlb swing is incapable of complete/objective description and furthermore, the best (still incomplete) verbal descriptions will be paradoxical. Then the best way to explore the meaning is to try to reconcile the paradox.

Work on your own to figure out, for example, quick hands and wrists and little snap after contact.

Then compare your findings to others exploring the same issues.

Rinse and repeat.

Of course, this requires having faith/trust that the author (williams) knew what he was talking about.

If you find a seeming contradiction and can not work it out/reconcile it, in my opinion the problem is you are not performing or feeling the execution of an mlb swing.

The most important things to focus on in my opinion are the paradoxes.

Another thing he said was to hit with top hand wrist unbroken or at least before wrists roll.

What did he mean by that ?

Or was he just confused ?

Or is it better to just ignore seeming contradictions ?

huh??????????